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1987~89 xx xx Lakshi's Delight 3.08 (progrockfan)
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progrockfan
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Post 2007-08-17 06:23   [Quote] 
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Considering that we can't be entirely positive that this is in fact DDD (take Resolver/Brutality, which is, what, DDAD?), but also considering that we can't be entirely sure Frank didn't deliberately knock the pitch down a bit (especially with Eastern music, my layman's ear's opinion is that a lot of it sounds like Western music with an odd pitch), and finally considering that this is all of four minutes in length, I can't see any reason not to have two versions (similar to the Knick Knack recording) - one torrent, two files, one speed corrected, one "au natural", you'll pay for your entire seat, but you'll only need the edge.


Now THAT is an excellent idea. I posted Knick Knack at two speeds at flambay's suggestion— one at Frank's speed, the other at -1200cts to reveal the original sonic sources. Doing Lakshi the same way would honour both FZ's possible intentions AND flambay's bat-ears accuracy.

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flambay
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Post 2007-08-17 07:29   [Quote] 
Zappa Penguin wrote:


Considering that we can't be entirely positive that this is in fact DDD (take Resolver/Brutality, which is, what, DDAD?), but also considering that we can't be entirely sure Frank didn't deliberately knock the pitch down a bit (especially with Eastern music, my layman's ear's opinion is that a lot of it sounds like Western music with an odd pitch), and finally considering that this is all of three minutes in length, I can't see any reason not to have two versions (similar to the Knick Knack recording) - one torrent, two files, one speed corrected, one "au natural", you'll pay for your entire seat, but you'll only need the edge.

progrockfan wrote:
If the consensus is that a pitch correction should be performed, I hope there's some means by which the contents of this debate can be transferred to the new thread. The debate here is fantastic!? better than I dared to hope for! schteb, drew, chuck, ZappaPengiun, et. al., keep talkin'!


Hear, hear. thumbsup


Good points, both of you (and everybody else ..)

A way to keep this thread intact is to replace the originally uploaded torrent with a new one including
- the originally posted piece and
- a speed adjusted version

and to get the whole thread moved to FZ Unreleased/Outtakes.
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Drew51
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Post 2007-08-17 15:04   [Quote] 
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Besides, Larry's Delight doesn't roll off the tongue in quite the same way...


If I saw this my first thought would be Wildman, so the original title makes sense.
In the list in Synclavier pieces listed by ZP, The Perfect Stranger was not mentioned. You know the Boulez LP.
I can't see how such a nice composition that the composer would not want to take credit and present it as a Zappa piece. This seems very illogical. Forever losing royalities or possible royalities. Plus how many people can dish out thousands upon thousands of dollars for a synclavier to fake a composition?
I agree with both versions. Though i would like to know why Flambay thinks it needs correction?
I also agree with ZP that to me this does not sound eastern to me. I like Eastern music giant fan of Shakti. I do like the western-eastern merge, not true eastern, not that interested say in the other Shankar, besides an occational listen. But L. Shankar, I'll take all day. Though some of his albums are not very good. His work with McLaughlin is amazing, and great to compare to Ponty-McLaughlin vs Shankar-McLaughlin.
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Drew51
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Post 2007-08-17 15:25   [Quote] 
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.MIDI in general definitely has the "uncanny valley" effect (that is to say, as an object becomes more natural our biological response to it grows increasingly positive, until the very end, when things are "almost real, but not". See here for more).


Where do you find these things? This response reminds me of all my present and old girlfriends. When they first see the family jewels it looks not real, like something you would buy for your own enjoyment. But as they get closer they see it's real and "the biological response to it grows increasingly positive". I call this the "The Wet Valley Effect".
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trigger
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Post 2007-08-17 15:34   [Quote] 
ubba ubba pumpa phoo

nice one

Exclamation

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flambay
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Post 2007-08-17 16:29   [Quote] 
drew51 wrote:
Though i would like to know why Flambay thinks it needs correction?

Good question, Drew.

To be honest I'm not sure anymore if adjusting the pitch of this tune the way I did originally suggest (+30cts)
would make it sound more 'ideal' than the way we are hearing it here, "as is".

In general (meaning: for more "conventional" recordings) I like to hear the music running at the proper key it's 'supposed' to run at,
with the A pitch tuned to the 'usual' ~440 Hz.

Of course we don't know in what pitch (or intermediate step thereof) the composer of this piece did intend to have it run, so any pitch adjustment if at all should be equally fine, or none at all, why not ? Progrockfan sure has a point there, regarding the computer music aspect.

After trying to adjust this tune to different keys, I must say it sounds even nicer when corrected down (-70cts to the key of Bb, or even -170cts to the A key),
rather than +30cts up (= B key).
Anyone could try and play around speed adjusting these synclavier pieces to their own liking. I'd be curious to hear your impressions depending the speed adjustment you are applying to it ...

Hint: If I adjust this piece from the A key one full octave up (-170+1200cts)
then it really sounds more like a Zappa synclavier piece, and imo it would nicely compare to those that have made it onto FZMTMOP.
Try it out for yourself ...

Makes me wonder how some of those released pieces would actually sound when slowed down about an octave.

So, in the light of all this I'm not sure anymore if I want to maintain my suggestion to have an "arbitrarily" speed corrected version of this track added up here, just based on subjective assumptions. We might as well leave this torrent untouched for now, keep it as is and move the whole thread to the outtakes section.

BTW, I'd be curious to know if there has ever been any documented acknowledgement or appreciation about this particular piece,
coming from L.Shankar or his closer entourage.
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pbuzby
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Post 2007-08-17 18:49   [Quote] 
flambay wrote:

Of course we don't know in what pitch (or intermediate step thereof) the composer of this piece did intend to have it run


A few of FZ's official releases ran sharp (most of YAWYI - also Rat Tomago and Rubber Shirt) - AFAIK there was never word on whether this was intentional or not.
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teniz
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Post 2007-08-17 19:26   [Quote] 
The speed of digital sources, measured in samples per second, is derived from a clock source.
In cheap DAT's, this could be of inferior quality (a cheap crystal), but I've never heard an example
of pitch aberrations of this magnitude.

ADAT, however, usually has a pitch control.

In this case, it sure sounds like a hum of some sort in the beginning. Reel-to-reel machines were
outdated by then (but are very stable, speed-wise) so I'd definitely guess this is from
a cassette tape. Haven't checked FA/SA, but probably with noise reduction.

EDIT: OOps, there were many replies I didn't read, but too late now.
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Zappa Penguin
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Post 2007-08-18 06:26   [Quote] 
drew51 wrote:
Quote:
.MIDI in general definitely has the "uncanny valley" effect (that is to say, as an object becomes more natural our biological response to it grows increasingly positive, until the very end, when things are "almost real, but not". See here for more).


Where do you find these things? This response reminds me of all my present and old girlfriends. When they first see the family jewels it looks not real, like something you would buy for your own enjoyment. But as they get closer they see it's real and "the biological response to it grows increasingly positive". I call this the "The Wet Valley Effect".


So it's a Shocked > Confused > Neutral > laughing my ass off sorta progression, then? Very Happy

...you're so big... it's so tiny... every cloud has silver lining...

(seriously, though, I laughed out loud (in a good way) when I first read this. Then groaned a little. Then laughed some more...)
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schteb
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Post 2007-08-20 06:10   [Quote] 
The more I listen to this thing the more I'm convinced it's not FZ. In fact, I think I know who wrote it. It sounds an awful lot like something Arthur Barrow would write. I have his cd Music for Listening and the sampled sounds are almost identical. The foot is coming down Marge ... the foot has spoken.
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Drew51
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Post 2007-08-20 22:39   [Quote] 
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(seriously, though, I laughed out loud (in a good way) when I first read this. Then groaned a little. Then laughed some more...)


I was being silly, and no, it's not impressive, wishful thinking....
The entry you pointed to was very interesting though. I never heard of the uncanny valley. I found it interesting and probably correct.

Quote:
an awful lot like something Arthur Barrow would write


I will ask Barrow about this piece. He would never do this though i can tell you that. If it is his, he is going to be pissed as hell someone said it was Frank.
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Zappa Penguin
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Post 2007-08-20 22:45   [Quote] 
drew51 wrote:
it's not impressive, wishful thinking....


You say the same thing about your tape collection... Rolling Eyes
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schteb
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Post 2007-08-21 06:46   [Quote] 
Just to be clear, I was in no way implying that I thought Arthur (or anyone for that matter) was doing this to fool people intentionally. I was listening to it last night and it just struck me that it reminded me of some of the writing on his Music for Listening CD. In any case, I think it was done on a system comparable to what Art was using for that cd and not a synclavier. I would be curious to know what he thinks of the piece and if he thinks it might be Frank.
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Zappa Penguin
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Post 2007-08-21 07:07   [Quote] 
schteb wrote:
I think it was done on a system comparable to what Art was using for that cd and not a synclavier.

The sounds in this are quite different from the very-MIDI like (as in, the Yamaha soft-synth that I so fondly remember coming with my second computer, and, later, the default Microsoft MIDI bank) sounds of Frank's known synclavier pieces - at least, the pieces I'm familiar with. I find it hard to draw any definite conclusions - could be a different sample bank, could be different "instruments" than he usually used, could be processing, and, yes, could be electronics other than the Synclavier (see also: Basement Music #1 and #2).
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progrockfan
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Post 2007-08-21 10:14   [Quote] 
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If I adjust this piece from the A key one full octave up (-170+1200cts)
then it really sounds more like a Zappa synclavier piece, and imo it would nicely compare to those that have made it onto FZMTMOP.
Try it out for yourself ...


I did so, flambay— and yes, Lakshi is quite startling, and very Zappaesque, at this increased speed.

Adjusting tempo -170+1200cts without pitch bend also produces interesting results.

Quote:
We might as well leave this torrent untouched for now, keep it as is and move the whole thread to the outtakes section.


Agreed— let's share this piece with the Zappateers community at large, and await the expansion of the discussion to a wider audience.

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