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How old are the Zappateers now (2020 "Perpetual" version)
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When were you born?
After 2010
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
00's
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
90's
10%
 10%  [ 10 ]
80's
6%
 6%  [ 6 ]
70's
19%
 19%  [ 19 ]
60's
37%
 37%  [ 36 ]
50's
19%
 19%  [ 19 ]
before 1950
6%
 6%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 96

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TPS
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Joined: 2005-02-26
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Post 2020-01-26 11:42   [Quote] 
Time for a refresh from this poll.
sage A new format so it doesn't need further refreshes for a while.

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LudzNL
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Post 2020-01-26 22:33   [Quote] 
Duh, I'm too old for this shit Wink

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PaulusS
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Post 2020-01-26 22:44   [Quote] 
LudzNL wrote:
Duh, I'm too old for this shit Wink

Nah, just too old.

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jaypfunk
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Post 2020-01-27 21:46   [Quote] 
52 in 2 weeks... Feb 10, 1968

HOLY SHIT!!

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yetanother
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Post 2020-01-28 00:46   [Quote] 
TPS wrote:
sage A new format so it doesn't need further refreshes for a while.

I suppose at some point the "after 2020" and "after 2030" options will have to be added...

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oofers
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Post 2020-01-28 15:53   [Quote] 
yetanother wrote:
TPS wrote:
sage A new format so it doesn't need further refreshes for a while.

I suppose at some point the "after 2020" and "after 2030" options will have to be added...


I honestly can't tell if you think this an auspicious possibility, or are simply being sarcastic! Laughing
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yetanother
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Post 2020-01-28 20:40   [Quote] 
oofers wrote:
yetanother wrote:
TPS wrote:
sage A new format so it doesn't need further refreshes for a while.

I suppose at some point the "after 2020" and "after 2030" options will have to be added...


I honestly can't tell if you think this an auspicious possibility, or are simply being sarcastic! Laughing

Pick one, I'm OK with both Laughing

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oofers
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Post 2020-01-28 21:05   [Quote] 
yetanother wrote:
oofers wrote:
yetanother wrote:
TPS wrote:
sage A new format so it doesn't need further refreshes for a while.

I suppose at some point the "after 2020" and "after 2030" options will have to be added...


I honestly can't tell if you think this an auspicious possibility, or are simply being sarcastic! Laughing

Pick one, I'm OK with both Laughing


Ha, well I think the former unlikely. A Zappa fan born 10 years from now? Probably doesn't discover FZ until close to 20 years after that? I want to be optimistic, but..... I mean..... did you watch the Grammys a couple of nights ago?

OK, I didn't see them either, but I saw enough highlights to affirm that my assessment of current pop culture is accurate. Our hypothetical 2030-er might be a Lizzo fan in 2050, but FZ? Probably not. But I'll probably be dead, so meh....

Well, I know it's been discussed here before -- how will the next generation of potential FZ fans come to know him? Hell, the ZFT appears to cashing in now before the demand gasps its last breath. In all seriousness, I think there will be new fans. But the distribution of this poll's results does not bode well.

(and of course the real question is, will Zappateers still be here 30 years from now?)
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yetanother
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Post 2020-01-29 03:27   [Quote] 
oofers wrote:
OK, I didn't see them either, but I saw enough highlights to affirm that my assessment of current pop culture is accurate. Our hypothetical 2030-er might be a Lizzo fan in 2050, but FZ? Probably not.

Oh, come on. Were the Grammys any better 30 years ago? It was always shit, and Zappa was never "pop culture". Anyone who expects new Zappa fans to come out of that particular market is bound to experience some serious frustration.

But the assumption that new generations can't be interested in artists who died before they were born is equally silly. Ask Beethoven about that.

There isn't less people interested in good music now than there was 50 years ago, or 100, or 300, even though the "old people discourse" hasn't really changed much over the centuries ("art is dying, all the youth cares about nowadays is cheap hedonistic fun, blah blah blah"). Seriously, have you ever read on the history of musical critique? People were already using that kind of argument in the 18th century, and possibly even earlier.

Speaking for myself, while I knew about FZ while he was alive, I only really got into his music several years after his death. In fact, come to think about it, this happened with most of my current favorite artists, many of which - unlike FZ - died even before I was born.

It seems John Coltrane has been dead for more than 60 years. I wonder if there are many young jazzmen or jazzwomen who never heard of him. No, actually I don't wonder, I seriously doubt it.

Honestly, I would be more concerned about whether newer generations will have water to drink and oxygen to breathe than whether they'll know about Zappa.

oofers wrote:
But the distribution of this poll's results does not bode well.

What is "boding well"? Boding well for whom? I am turning 40 this year and seem to be already in the minority. I'm OK with that. I wouldn't take the results of this poll as representative of Zappa fan demographics, though.

[Edit: judging by the poll's results, there are already more Zappa fans born in the '90s than in the '80s, so there.]

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PaulusS
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Post 2020-01-29 09:19   [Quote] 
yetanother wrote:
[Edit: judging by the poll's results, there are already more Zappa fans born in the '90s than in the '80s, so there.]

But does that mean music in the '80s sucked more than music in the '90s? Or the other way around?

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oofers
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Post 2020-01-29 17:34   [Quote] 
Martin, sometimes I think you're a contrarian just to be antagonistic.
yetanother wrote:
Oh, come on. Were the Grammys any better 30 years ago?

No. But I think they were/are representative of what the (then-record-buying, now-streaming) public consumes en masse.
yetanother wrote:
Anyone who expects new Zappa fans to come out of that particular market is bound to experience some serious frustration.

Good thing I don't, then.
yetanother wrote:
But the assumption that new generations can't be interested in artists who died before they were born is equally silly. Ask Beethoven about that.

That's not my assumption, and comparing Beethoven to any Grammy winner this year is apples and oranges. I'll not discuss how music was patronized, created, and promulgated back then as compared to now, because I know you know more than me about that. Lizzo and Beethoven did not create their music the same way or for the same reasons. I think people will still listen (and more importantly, perform) Beethoven 200 years from now. I don't think the same is true for Lil Nas X.
yetanother wrote:
There isn't less people interested in good music now than there was 50 years ago, or 100, or 300, even though the "old people discourse" hasn't really changed much over the centuries ("art is dying, all the youth cares about nowadays is cheap hedonistic fun, blah blah blah"). Seriously, have you ever read on the history of musical critique?

Yes, as I matter of fact I have. Had to for my degree. "Seriously"! However, I am deferential to your knowledge, because I am sure it is more comprehensive than mine. But that doesn't make you right. Or me, for that matter. It's like, my opinion, man....
yetanother wrote:
People were already using that kind of argument in the 18th century, and possibly even earlier.

That's not my argument, but if it were, you mean something that's wrong back then can't be correct now?
yetanother wrote:
Speaking for myself, while I knew about FZ while he was alive, I only really got into his music several years after his death. In fact, come to think about it, this happened with most of my current favorite artists, many of which - unlike FZ - died even before I was born.

Sure, please speak for yourself, but are you, a composer with extensive knowledge, representative of the average musical consumer? And incidentally, me too -- I remember hearing about FZ's death, but didn't get Studio Tan, my first album, until 3 years later.

Call me crazy (if you haven't already), but everything I see from contributors here indicates that we are not lock-step with the Billboard top 100 (or whatever it's called). Yeah, I'm getting old too (47), and I understand your reference to generational bias. I am a piano instructor and my convictions come from what I see in my students. Good and bad.

I think some technology is great. For example, a wellspring of information about jazz improvisation, the kind of stuff one could only learn from apprenticing with a master, is now a youtube click away.

I think some technology is detrimental. I've literally had students tell me they want to play from piano roll notation, not staff.

Speaking just for myself now, when I listen to current pop music, I just hear quantization, cutting & pasting, and auto-tune. OK, I'm being over simplistic here, but I'm emphasizing the point that art is about process, not product. I know I'm telling you nothing you already don't know. But goddamn, the musical product has changed so much in last few decades with the advent of the technological process that does all the work for you. It can be hard to convince a student that they should learn their key signatures and scales if they feel like DAW will just do it for them. But a student who is inspired by Duke Ellington comes to appreciate the hard work of actual musical practice.
yetanother wrote:
It seems John Coltrane has been dead for more than 60 years. I wonder if there are many young jazzmen or jazzwomen who never heard of him. No, actually I don't wonder, I seriously doubt it.

Another straw man, coupled with the sardonic "I wonder...". Look, I think there are icons of pop music that will still be revered in 60 years. Check out a list of the Lifetime Achievement Grammy winners. (And by the way, that's the only Grammy Trane ever won. FZ has one too). Also, Coltrane died in 67. Not that it affects your point. Just dishing out the same pedanticism you seem fond of.
yetanother wrote:
Honestly, I would be more concerned about whether newer generations will have water to drink and oxygen to breathe than whether they'll know about Zappa.

Agreed, but this is Zappa forum and not an environmental activism forum.
yetanother wrote:
What is "boding well"? Boding well for whom? I am turning 40 this year and seem to be already in the minority. I'm OK with that.

Sorry, I guess I didn't think that remark through. I guess maybe that it doesn't bode well for any promise of Zappa being as popular in the future as he ever was? (Which, yes, I know was never mainstream). Let's see, what else -- doesn't bode well for ZFT's sales in 30 years? Um... maybe doesn't bode well for my grandchildren when I play Hot Rats for them?
yetanother wrote:
I wouldn't take the results of this poll as representative of Zappa fan demographics, though.

Ok, fair enough. But it's all I had. I guess there's no reason for this thread at all?
yetanother wrote:
[Edit: judging by the poll's results, there are already more Zappa fans born in the '90s than in the '80s, so there.]

Wow, you got me to check again and now I realize the sample size (n=56) is incredibly small.

I've always respected you here. I learn a lot from stuff you post. You really are an embodiment of the present-day composer refusing to die. I mean, I teach, compose, and gig out solo piano. No way would I ever want to deal with what you deal with. But shit, sometimes you are a hair-trigger reactionary, and I'm just left aghast. So condescending. I really was just expounding of your funny quip from earlier. But I think we at least agree on "Fuck the Grammys". FZ too. He never lived to see his 2 awards, but we know what he thought of his nominations.

If you reply, I will certainly read it, but not respond. I realize I get worked up when I try to defend myself and it's not good.
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obdewil
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Post 2020-01-31 00:00   [Quote] 
The Present Day Zappateer Refuses to Die stroke ?
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yetanother
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Post 2020-01-31 03:00   [Quote] 
oofers: I wasn't trying to be a "contrarian". Nor was I implying anything about your own opinions or point of view when I alluded to the typical apocalyptic views about art that I encounter routinely in my professional life, so I apologize if it sounded like that. I have no reason to be condescending with people I know nothing about, and if you knew anything about me you certainly wouldn't call me a reactionary. But anyway...

I just don't think your comparison with Grammy winners makes any sense. Sure, a great deal of pop music is crap. So it was in FZ's time. Dumb people will always listen to dumb music, and you know as well as I do (as FZ did) that dumb people will always be in the majority. I think we should be OK with that, at least to some extent - it's not like we're working for that particular audience anyway. Of course Zappa was more popular in his lifetime, when he was around to tour and promote his work and create new stuff. There are few exceptions to that rule. But I don't buy the whole apocalyptical discourse that "art is dying" - I genuinely believe, and history shows, that there will always be people interested in the real deal. Zappa will be forgotten for good, like all other great artists, when we go extinct.

Just to be clear, I'm perfectly OK with you disagreeing with everything I said here (even if you think it's, ahem, "reactionary"). We work in very different circuits, under very different economical and political conditions, with very different backgrounds and personal experience, so I wouldn't expect otherwise.

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drdork
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Post 2020-01-31 06:14   [Quote] 
oofers wrote:
But I think we at least agree on "Fuck the Grammys". FZ too. He never lived to see his 2 awards, but we know what he thought of his nominations.

Jazz From Hell (either the track or the album) won Best Rock Instrumental Performance in the 1987 Grammys.
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yetanother
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Post 2020-01-31 17:33   [Quote] 
drdork wrote:
oofers wrote:
But I think we at least agree on "Fuck the Grammys". FZ too. He never lived to see his 2 awards, but we know what he thought of his nominations.

Jazz From Hell (either the track or the album) won Best Rock Instrumental Performance in the 1987 Grammys.

Yeah, even though it can hardly be called "rock".

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