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1974 11 27 St.Paul MN SBD [8 TomP reworked samples]
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tomp
Joined: 2006-04-27
Posts: 39
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Post 2012-02-27 18:17   [Quote] 
This post is to contribute reworked samples from the original topic here...
http://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=23726

Included a reworked samples of each source...
1. Phase offset corrected (by moving left channel by different indicated amounts of 44.1k samples)
2. Best sounding mono channel

If I was ranking them for sound quality, I would suggest this order...

Highest....
Yojimbo
robsam-drzap
fzmoi-drzap
EasyEd-ZP
...Lowest

This is my first ever post on Zappateers, with the help of Flambay, so I hope I got it right !!

Best regards and thanks to all...TomP

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flambay
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Post 2012-02-27 18:27   [Quote] 
Quote:
so I hope I got it right !!

Almost. Wink

Now you have to make sure that when opening your torrent file
that your client points to the right folder ("save as..")
recognizes the existing files on your harddisk
so that you can show as a 100% seeder
instead of trying to download the files yourself (0%).
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tomp
Joined: 2006-04-27
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Post 2012-02-27 18:49   [Quote] 
flambay wrote:
Quote:
so I hope I got it right !!

Almost. Wink

Now you have to make sure that when opening your torrent file
that your client points to the right folder ("save as..")
recognizes the existing files on your harddisk
so that you can show as a 100% seeder
instead of trying to download the files yourself (0%).


Apologies for my newbie confusion. I created the torrentfile and posted the topic, but am not actually sure what to do now.

I tried to open the torrent file and simply get "downloading" so what have I done and/or need to do?

Thanks again...TomP

Update: I'm now showing as seeding, but getting the uTorrent message ... "Tracker send invalid data [NULL}" Any ideas?

Update2: I deleted my torrent and clicked the Download in the topic, which seems to have got me seeding now, OK?

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flambay
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Post 2012-02-27 19:19   [Quote] 
Quote:
OK?

Seems to be OK now. thumbsup
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arf
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Post 2012-02-28 08:40   [Quote] 
Welcome Tom, great to see you here ! (for anyone who doesn't know him, cf. Tom's many excellent contributions on Dime).
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BengoFury
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Post 2012-02-28 10:07   [Quote] 
Welcome Tom, always nice to see someone willing and able to help out in the sampling process!
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tomp
Joined: 2006-04-27
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Post 2012-02-28 12:54   [Quote] 
BengoFury wrote:
Welcome Tom, always nice to see someone willing and able to help out in the sampling process!

Thanks for all the welcomes !!

Hopefully folks can hear the differences between the corrected samples, which are typical of what I do on Dime, and are fixing typical recording deficiencies (as opposed to "altering" the sound typical of other remasters, which I believe Zappateeers rightly frowns upon) and thus might still be allowed here, as I do see that speed correction is already allowed?

There appear to be other deficiencies in some other posts (eg. 1973 Armadillo and 1974 Buffalo) that appear to have been caused by on-stage microphone spacing some distance apart (or might be some previous atifical "stereo broadening") thus creating a "hole" in the middle of the stereo image. This could be easily fixed by cross-mixing left and right stereo channels by a precise amount (whatever the cause). For those interested, the Grateful Dead official "Two From The Vault" was recorded with eight on-stage mics and required a massive phase offset and cross-mxing task to align all the channels to get a coherent sound.

Cross-mixing by a tiny precise amount can also help to cancel out-of-phase venue reflections, which of course are heard differently in every seat in a venue and thus not exactly what the band heard, so this is possibly also a useful tool to fix recording deficiencies to restore the true sound of a performance.

Regards...TomP

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Drew51
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Post 2012-02-28 14:10   [Quote] 
Pitch and phase offset are ok to fix, the remixing of channels is a little too much. Although we completely agree with you on what you say, at least I do. That is one reason I'm for all sources of a show, i.e. all tapers examples be posted. I think in the future the blending of various sources would make a more true example of the show. But we are not about that. We want to keep it raw as possible. Phase and pitch are basic, mixing channels is too much of an art form, although the software is starting to point you where and when to do this, one never knows what better tools are yet to be developed. Whether true or not it is viewed more of an art (mixing channels) then a correction. At least at this time.
I do also think the Yojimbo/Jon Fin versions sounds best, but the FA/SA is the least desirable, with some drop off in higher frequencies. Jon-fin was the main guy to secure these tapes, and his should sound the best. Most do not. Here though it does sound better.

If you do not know, this board was part of a group of boards we call the Barber tapes. Dick Barber was a road manager for a time for Frank.


Last edited by Drew51 on 2012-02-29 03:37; edited 1 time in total
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Overnitefreak
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Post 2012-02-28 14:13   [Quote] 
Thanks TomP! We appreciate the interest and efforts to assist here. Interesting timing as we've been discussing phase offset here recently.

I will check these samples out when I get back home this weekend.
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tomp
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Post 2012-02-28 22:39   [Quote] 
Drew51 wrote:
Pitch and phase offset are ok to fix, the remixing of channels is a little too much. Although we completely agree with you on what you say, at least I do. That is one reason I'm for all sources of a show, i.e. all tapers examples be posted. I think in the future the blending of various sources would make a more true example of the show. But we are not about that. We want to keep it raw as possible. Phase and pitch are basic, mixing channels is too much of an art form, although the software is starting to point you where and when to do this, one never knows what better tools are yet to be developed. Whether true or not it is viewed more of an art (mixing channels) then a correction. At least at this time.
I do also think the Yojimbo/Jon Fin versions sounds best, but the FA/SA is the least desirable, with some drop off in higher frequencies. Jon-fin was the main guy to secure these tapes, and his should sound the best. Most do not. Here though it does sound better.

If you do not know, this board was part of a group of boards we call the Barber tapes. Dick Barber was a road manager for a time for Frank. These tapes were bought off of him. Jon-fin, Robsam, and Den Simms were some of the guys who chipped in. Easy Ed presented Den Simm's version. Ron Covall also was in on this and no examples of his copies have ever surfaced. He still tapes stuff, but does not trade at all at this time.


Many thanks for the info and to all of the really generous folks who have brought them back to life.

Could I ask what the recording method was for the 1973 Armadillo and 1974 Buffalo? If indeed they did use widely spaced mics on stage, would it still not be valid to correct that? and would anybody mind if I posted samples of such correction for comment?

Also a lot of my Dimework has been recovering FM recordings that theoretically should sound better than 192k DAB broadcasts. The technical reason is that FM appears to have a built in phase shift and compression on dynamic peaks (~6bB), which the digital one does not. The interesting thing is that even if the digital versions are amplified to -2dB compared to FM, they sound louder than FM and with apparently more bass and treble, but does not show in virtually identical frequency response plots. For those interested, I've actually published some of this comparison data (of Bad Plus) on Dime here....
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=205666&page=0#startcomments

The even more interesting thing is that when fixing phase offset (especially one digital sample adjustment as in some of those I posted) the music has again a very distinct impression of greater volume, bass and treble, which leads me to speculate that the other brain sound processing mechanism, "fight or flight" which accurately and autonomically locates low and high frequency impulsive "threats" even before a person becomes aware of the exact frequency and volume you are hearing, may be playing a much higher role than may have been recognised in the impression of sound quality. Thus possibly the finding we both agree on in terms of the best quality samples.

It is entirely possible that the amount of sensitivity to phase and dynamic "slew rate" may very from person to person and some will be more sensitive, but I feel I can recognise this also when there is an extra generation in the recordings, so whilst the lineages of the four version is in the other post, I would (only) speculate that the Yojimbo is actually first gen, the middle two are second gen and the lowest quality to my ears sounds like 3rd gen. Just my own two penn'orth (or 10 US cents) worth.

This doesn't actually mean that others will not find a less dynamic and more rounded (dare I say vinyl) sound is not more preferable to their ears, so publishing every source is still absolutely the right thing to do.

Sorry if it is a long post, but I'm passionate about getting the best quality despite recording processes...TomP (can't say that about my typing so you may find some errors due to my failing eyesight)

PS: Call me anal but I can also hear the three different recording studios in which Queen recorded Bohemian Rhapsody, some (but not all) of which I correctly identified and are fixed in offical recent remasters, but I'm doing my own further work for my wife who loves it but only (autonomically again) taps her feet during the in-phase parts and stop when it switches over to one of the other sources - as does my sister in law too. For sure they are not technical in any way, but just know when something sounds better LOL !!

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TOGFIADO
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Post 2012-03-01 20:39   [Quote] 
While all this technical talk is all very interesting, I have to say that as far as my old lugs are concerned the differences between the different tape sources are much more audible than any differences between the phase corrected and mono versions of the same sources. I know my hearing isn't what it used to be, and I've only had a quick listen, but I'd be interested to know what everybody else thinks about theses corrections. I'd also like everyone else to leave the house so I can repeat the process really loud. headbanger

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pbuzby
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Post 2012-03-01 20:53   [Quote] 
tomp wrote:
Could I ask what the recording method was for the 1973 Armadillo and 1974 Buffalo?


I don't think anyone here knows. IMO the 1974 boards sound like they were a combination of close mic'd sources through the board, not anything to do with onstage mics. The Armadillo 73 sounds different - I believe FZ said he recorded with the portable four-track Scully in the 70's using two onstage stereo pairs, so it is possible that is what we have there reduced to a two track cassette.
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Overnitefreak
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Post 2012-03-01 23:28   [Quote] 
Quote:
I don't think anyone here knows. IMO the 1974 boards sound like they were a combination of close mic'd sources through the board, not anything to do with onstage mics. The Armadillo 73 sounds different - I believe FZ said he recorded with the portable four-track Scully in the 70's using two onstage stereo pairs, so it is possible that is what we have there reduced to a two track cassette.


I agree. The barber boards are exactly that: cassettes made from front of house board or monitor board. No mixing or level checking during or after the recording for the good of the tape.

Playing in bands over the years, I have experienced these "sound board" recordings first hand. They don't always yield what you expect from a sound board as you are at the mercy of what is mixed for the PA. Individual instrument levels can be all over the place from venue to venue on the tapes even though the live mix is relatively consistent. It is also very likely that the tape will come out over-saturated and distorted when the mixer has to crank certain instruments for the PA mix.

I would imagine that Austin is very much like Sydney June 25. It sounds like a tape that originates from and mixed (at least roughly) by FZ.
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falbrav
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Post 2012-03-02 10:35   [Quote] 
TOGFIADO wrote:
While all this technical talk is all very interesting, I have to say that as far as my old lugs are concerned the differences between the different tape sources are much more audible than any differences between the phase corrected and mono versions of the same sources. I know my hearing isn't what it used to be, and I've only had a quick listen, but I'd be interested to know what everybody else thinks about theses corrections. I'd also like everyone else to leave the house so I can repeat the process really loud. headbanger


Ok, but these are different issues. Everybody would welcome a 2-gen lower source of a show, but we can also try to get the best of what we have.
Tomp is right, really, phase issues are meaningful. I hope you will find a moment where your neighbours leave you alone and give you the chance to try at the right volume Very Happy

Seriously, phase issues deserve to be checked and fixed. Many recordings on tracker would benefit.
For mono sources, and there are many, in most cases keeping and duplicating the best channel is an easy and effective solution. Sound becomes fuller and more natural. One should just check if there were occasional small flaws on the best channel that were covered by the other one.
For real stereo sources things are less obvious, but something can be done. I remember that JWB did it on Chalk Pie upgrade last year. There are also other cases where things are less easy, phase fluctuations are irregular.. there are good tools-plugins to deal with this, anyway.
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tomp
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Post 2012-03-02 15:59   [Quote] 
TOGFIADO wrote:
While all this technical talk is all very interesting, I have to say that as far as my old lugs are concerned the differences between the different tape sources are much more audible than any differences between the phase corrected and mono versions of the same sources. I know my hearing isn't what it used to be, and I've only had a quick listen, but I'd be interested to know what everybody else thinks about theses corrections. I'd also like everyone else to leave the house so I can repeat the process really loud. headbanger


You are quite correct !! A large part of the differences are corrected, so they sound closer to each other. Listening loud is a great plan LOL !!

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