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Karlheinz Stockhausen ~ FZ
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Pittylabelle
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Post 2010-12-24 01:35   [Quote] 
BTW: The weirdest thing of Karlheinz I've ever got in contact so far was his spaced out piece "Helicopter String Quartet":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13D1YY_BvWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBBY7B3gerk&feature=related

This is quite weird (relatively seen), but I like it! Smile
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yetanother
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Post 2010-12-24 02:28   [Quote] 
Helikopter Streichquartett is beautiful!

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poldino
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Post 2010-12-24 03:17   [Quote] 
nitramziarreh wrote:
Helikopter Streichquartett is beautiful!


It's certainly one of the best pieces of music involving people counting to ten in German inside vehicles...
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yetanother
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Post 2010-12-24 03:36   [Quote] 
poldino wrote:
It's certainly one of the best pieces of music involving people counting to ten in German inside vehicles...

From what I remember they only count up to eight. I understand most people judging it by "normal" standards will have trouble even accepting as music, but I still think it's beautiful.

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poldino
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Post 2010-12-24 03:42   [Quote] 
nitramziarreh wrote:
poldino wrote:
It's certainly one of the best pieces of music involving people counting to ten in German inside vehicles...

From what I remember they only count up to eight. I understand most people judging it by "normal" standards will have trouble even accepting as music, but I still think it's beautiful.


I'm a big fan of Stockhausen's music, but for me it's his "Cage piece". Everyone's heard about Cage's 4"33, but practically no-one's heard anything else by him, which is a shame, as - let's be honest - it's his worst piece. Likewise with Stockhausen and HQ. I think it's funny, great idea etc but I don't enjoy listening to it and don't bother any more.
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yetanother
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Post 2010-12-24 03:50   [Quote] 
poldino wrote:
no-one's heard anything else by him

Sure? What about Kontakte, Gesang der Jünglinge, Gruppen, Klavierstücke, Kreuzspiel, Mantra? They're all quite "popular" pieces - the Helikopter Streichquartett is just more recent. Anyway, as I said before, I don't think it's his worst piece - far from it. And you can't really compare it to 4'33", which was written in the 1950's (no wonder everyone's heard about it).

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cookie_manager
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Post 2010-12-24 08:30   [Quote] 
I enjoyed the "Helikopter Streichquartett" a lot when I got to know it. Really stands out as a fresh and freaky idea among the other "Licht"-stuff which I heard from that period. I re-visited it a while ago, and it wasn't that much fun anymore, but still okay listening for me. Don't they count up to thirteen? (in Klavierstück XIII, his daughter Majella counts at least to thirteen... drrreeeeiiiii und zeeeeeehhhhn, really funny!).

I hear a lot of humor in Helikopter, and also... in the spoken intro for the premiere performance, a cheerful Stockhausen places a few jokey remarks, which creates a certain mental frame for what's to follow. There are actually moments in my Stockhausen-perception when the humorous aspect overshadows all that "I come from Sirius"-bla bla philosophical stuff.

If anything, the Helikopter Streichquartett is Stockhausen's Xenakis-number TDK-cheesy (at this point of the thread, Cage, Stockhausen and Xenakis all turn in their graves)

In "Zeitmaße" there's one section I thought "Navial Aviation in Art" explores... like... FZ basically varies what Karlheinz made up there in the mid-50s. There's one very beautiful harmonic turn in "Zeitmaße" which I thought Zappa just quotes, but I was wrong. But there's still a certain degree of similarity between that particular "Zeitmaße"-section and "Naval...", but well... then again "Naval" uses soundvocabulary that in the 70s/80s already was broadly clicheed in 20th century music, so it might just be a coincidence.
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yetanother
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Post 2010-12-24 15:37   [Quote] 
cookie_manager wrote:
Don't they count up to thirteen?

You got me there. But since "dreizehn" has two sillables, it's not very appropriate for counting beats, so I would guess not.

cookie_manager wrote:
If anything, the Helikopter Streichquartett is Stockhausen's Xenakis-number TDK-cheesy (at this point of the thread, Cage, Stockhausen and Xenakis all turn in their graves)

Good one Laughing

I only have to disagree with your comparison of Zeitmaße and NAIA. I've studied both pieces quite closely (well, I haven't studied Zeitmaße that closely - I don't have the patience for analyzing serial music, but I did have an extensive look at the score) and I don't see anything in common between them. NAIA explores unison rhythms and a contrapuntal texture which is in any case closer to some works by Ligeti (or even Palestrina) than Stockhausen. "Unison" and "counterpoint" are two words that could probably have prompted a young Stockhausen to unleash hell upon whoever mentioned them in the context of "modern music" (remember FZ's liner notes about the pieces on the Boulez album being "preposterously non-modern"). Not to mention the "compactness" and economy of means in NAIA which is goes totally in the opposite direction of post-war serial music, which was concerned mostly with creating HUGE works and exploring every minute detail to the most extreme possible degree. Last but not least, NAIA has a very strong "diatonic" quality which would have been considered heresy in the 1950's!

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Post 2010-12-24 18:54   [Quote] 
Here's the section I had in mind.

http://rapidshare.com/files/439083360/zeitmasse-extract_10.40_-_11.20.mp3

I'm sure on a theoretical level, these two pieces are very different from each other. And if one hears similarities, these certainly are coincidentally.

In Zeitmaße, there's this particular section, in this sample from 0:20 to 0:27 with some harmonic stuff going on which I was sure I heard somewhere else... and I just thought it was NAIA (it is not).

re Helikopter:
I'm not sure these numbers are there for counting musical units. At least in Klavierstück XIII, the interpreter has to count backwards, and sometimes also extremely fast/slow (maybe even up to fourteen? need to check again)

Btw, I heard rumors that all those Stockhausen pieces which use this loud counting actually are based on opera libretto-fragments by this guy http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/3/3c/CT-p0001-ST.jpg
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yetanother
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Post 2010-12-24 19:05   [Quote] 
cookie_manager wrote:
In Zeitmaße, there's this particular section, in this sample from 0:20 to 0:27 with some harmonic stuff going on which I was sure I heard somewhere else... and I just thought it was NAIA (it is not).

Maybe you were thinking about Times Beach? Still, I would tend to think that the only similarity between those two pieces is the instrumentation.

As for the numbers on Helikopter, I have no idea what they're for - that was just a wild guess. As a musical idea I would say it's a quite silly one.

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Post 2010-12-26 20:12   [Quote] 
I opened this thread because I noticed (for me!) similarities between Oktophonie and Civilization Phaze III. But it's strictly between Oktophonie and Civilization Phaze III. For example Mantra (which, I think, is very nice) is very different from FZ's music.

The Helicopter Quartet is wonderful on my iPod when I take the métro in Paris. The music goes wonderfully well with the background broom broom of the métro. I never had the possibility to say this to Karlheinz and I'll always regret it. Kontakte is fantastic and I had a wonderful experience with this piece. Kreuzspiel is nice but Ylem bores me. I love Stimmung, Klavierstücke and Spiral.

About some composers mentioned here:
I love Morton Feldman's music hearts
Milton Babbitt: I only have this CD released by Tzadik (thanks John Zorn!) but I like it a lot (was Earle Brown mentioned?)

Not sure George Antheil has been mentioned. His Ballet mécanique is a must. Did you know that Ezra Pound worked with George? Off topic but I wanted to say that Wink
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Jim Lahey
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Post 2019-03-10 12:27   [Quote] 
brainpang wrote:
nitramziarreh wrote:
brainpang wrote:
And of course the biggie, if not a down-right rip-off, is Frank's approximation of MOMENTE on the material that became 200 Motels.


What is the approximation? If it's just his use of moment form and discontinuity, then it's too superficial a connection to be considered an influence of Stockhausen on Zappa. As a matter of fact, Stravinsky was using "moment form" in his early works long before Stockhausen even invented the term, so that aspect of FZ's music is more likely a direct influence of Stravinsky (and of FZ's own experiments with tape editing) than of Stockhausen.


Parts of Motels sound like FZ may as well cut in a recording off Stockhausens LP. If it was more melodic or something, it wd be clearly regarded as a quote. I'm just a layman here, but I think you have had too much to think.

Just bought a copy of Momente and having never heard it before, halfway through side 1 my thought was "This sounds like 200 Motels."
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feralcats
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Post 2019-03-10 12:46   [Quote] 
I think I remember there being an old interview from the 60's where someone asks Zappa what his ideal woman would be and after a number of other things says something like "she should be able to play Stockhausen's Klavierstucke..."

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Post 2019-03-10 20:27   [Quote] 
FZ was sitting at/by/in(?) a water fountain and, suddenly, KS appears, I shit you not...

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Post 2019-03-10 22:37   [Quote] 
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
FZ was sitting at/by/in(?) a water fountain and, suddenly, KS appears, I shit you not...

Just to be clear, because there may be false friends at play here, they were in a school, and this is the kind of "water fountain" FZ had in mind:


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