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Karlheinz Stockhausen ~ FZ
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CheepnisAroma
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Post 2010-10-16 17:05   [Quote] 
Do you like Stockhausen's music, ladies and gentlemen?

For some reason, I never noticed how Oktophonie is "similar" to Civilization Phaze III until a few days ago. Just listen to Oktophonie: doesn't it remind you of another album? I'd like to know what you think. (maybe it's just my imagination)

Have you picked up other similarities between Karlheinz's music and FZ?
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BengoFury
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Post 2010-10-16 17:11   [Quote] 
IMO he's closer to Tangerine Dream than Zappa Wink
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CheepnisAroma
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Post 2010-10-16 17:16   [Quote] 
Tangerine Dream!?
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poldino
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Post 2010-10-16 17:27   [Quote] 
CheepnisAroma wrote:
Do you like Stockhausen's music, ladies and gentlemen?

For some reason, I never noticed how Oktophonie is "similar" to Civilization Phaze III until a few days ago. Just listen to Oktophonie: doesn't it remind you of another album? I'd like to know what you think. (maybe it's just my imagination)

Have you picked up other similarities between Karlheinz's music and FZ?


He's great. Think his earlier stuff is better - too much new-agey nonsense in some of his later work; wearing this or that colour clothes on certain days of the week, and his clumsy, dated choice of synth sounds.

But much of his pre-1970's work is great. Here's a few of my faves:

Mantra (1970) for 2 pianos and electronics is one of my favourites.

Hymnen is a tape piece - snippets of loads of national anthems subjected to tape manipulation - sheer class. He constructed a turntable with 4 microphones - one in each corner. There was a speaker on the turntable so he could play sounds and then record them on the 4 mikes. Obviously for CDs this stuff gets mixed down onto 2 tracks but some of his pieces are meant for more than 2 channels (some for loads more!).

Microphonie 1 is another piece for microphones, filters and other electronics. A lot of the sounds are from banging, scraping etc percussion instruments and manipulating the subsequent sounds.

Klavierstucke - some piano pieces.

Kontakte - hard to explain - link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontakte_%28Stockhausen%29

Some of this stuff is available as part of the 'avant garde project', if you'd care to google for that - apparently legal releases of vinyl which is long out of print.

Similarities between Zappa and Stockhausen? Some of his early pieces, perhaps including Kontakte and Hymnen are going to have elements which will remind you of Lumpy Gravy. I'll have to see if I have Octophonie, can't remember. But Stockhausens actual `music` (as opposed to sounds/noises) sometimes reminds me of Zappa's classical pieces generally. Although Zappa's classical was often non-tonal, it reminds me more of Stockhausen, Carter and Boulez than Schoenberg, Webern, Berg etc. Those guys seemed to be trying to do something new with old music, whereas Carter, Stockhausen etc were trying to do something new with new music, if that makes any sense.


Last edited by poldino on 2010-10-16 21:02; edited 1 time in total
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hoops
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Post 2010-10-16 17:28   [Quote] 
BengoFury wrote:
IMO he's closer to Tangerine Dream than Zappa Wink


Tangerine Dream is preferable to Stockhausen for me Very Happy


Last edited by hoops on 2010-10-16 17:29; edited 1 time in total
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la_biesta
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Post 2010-10-16 17:29   [Quote] 
CheepnisAroma wrote:
Tangerine Dream!?


eh oui,

Les reveurs de Tanger roflol

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BognarRegis
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Post 2010-10-16 18:16   [Quote] 
I don't quite see the similarities between TD and Stockhausen but I do see similarities between Stockhausen and Can. Especially considering that Holger Czukay was one of Stockhausen's apprentices.
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cookie_manager
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Post 2010-10-16 20:16   [Quote] 
Several years back, I was VERY MUCH into Stockhausen - so much that I ordered three batches of CDs from the Stockhausen-Verlag, each batch several hundred Deutschmarks worth (no idea where I got that money from).

Anyway I never was into his spiritual stuff that much, but felt the need to check him out very very closely, as the 50s/60s-"Darmstadt-avantgarde"-fan I was (and still am to some degree).

Haha - it was just yesterday that I started to listen again to classical stuff, after several years, and my taste really changed. Babbitt still does it for me, but late Boulez successfully bored me to tears, some middle-period Nono sounded rather placative to me now... I'm also pretty sure I will love Feldman more than I did back then.
I didn't try out Stockhausen yet... except for "Telemusik", a piece I found very strong when getting to know it ~10 years ago. Now I don't remember what impressed me so much about it.

So I really have to check his stuff out again... 10 years ago he was one of my top-4 compers (together with Nono, Feldman and Babbitt) - I believe there where times I found him even to be the strongest creative force in that department. That might change these days.

But some while ago, I loved a lot of his music madly, yes.
Man... I remember I had a two-week-vacation, and I listened to nothing but Stockhausen for most of the time (not doing much else... except for reading books about/by Stockhausen). Good times. Smile
I strongly prefer his 50s work - not even so much the electronic stuff, but chamber + orchestral music. When he started delving into "intuitive Musik", I lost interest. In his 70s/80s/90s oeuvre, there are some out-standing compositions (never heard anything from the 2000s), but there's so much stuff also I don't have time for (incl. Oktophonie - urgh).

I never had the idea of connecting Zappa with Stockhausen. I don't really see that. More obvious would be Braxton + Stockhausen.

Maybe in one week I'll already have enough of all that , and switch back to studying my Melt-Banana-collection a bit more. Laughing
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franktomatozappa
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Post 2010-10-16 23:44   [Quote] 
Didn't Zappa and Stockhausen meet each other at one point? hmm
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yetanother
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Post 2010-10-17 00:28   [Quote] 
I like some of Stockhausen's work. I see no connection to Zappa though, especially in Oktophonie (their use of moment form may be somewhat related, but it's not something listeners would identify as a connection on the surface).

Oktophonie is a piece which IMO can only be properly appreciated as it's meant to be performed, i.e. through an octophonic sound system. When you listen to it live in concert, it's quite an experience; the stereo reduction available on CD is uninteresting and inexpressive, though.

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pbuzby
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Post 2010-10-17 00:37   [Quote] 
franktomatozappa wrote:
Didn't Zappa and Stockhausen meet each other at one point? hmm


Not sure but FZ mentions in one show (1976 11 16 Toronto) that Klaus Wiedemann, who built some effects for FZ's guitar and engineered some of the "road tapes" from 79 and 80, had previously worked with Stockhausen.
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yetanother
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Post 2010-10-17 00:40   [Quote] 
franktomatozappa wrote:
Didn't Zappa and Stockhausen meet each other at one point? hmm

He mentions in Peefeeyatko that they met by a water fountain or something like that, but all they said to each other was "hi".

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poldino
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Post 2010-10-17 10:07   [Quote] 
nitramziarreh wrote:
franktomatozappa wrote:
Didn't Zappa and Stockhausen meet each other at one point? hmm

He mentions in Peefeeyatko that they met by a water fountain or something like that, but all they said to each other was "hi".


I remember Zappa not being too positive about Stockhausen's work, which surprised me a little. Stockhausen described Zappa as `a failed composer`, so I guess the feeling was mutual!
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brainpang
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Post 2010-10-17 14:40   [Quote] 
The KS touring ensemble of 1964, I think most famously represented by MIKROPHONIE I & II, has just got to be a major influence on MOI improvs. KS was also into 'sound projection,' experimenting with mic placement, and all that stuff pretty much before anyone, right?

And of course the biggie, if not a down-right rip-off, is Frank's approximation of MOMENTE on the material that became 200 Motels.
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yetanother
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Post 2010-10-17 14:56   [Quote] 
brainpang wrote:
KS was also into 'sound projection,' experimenting with mic placement, and all that stuff pretty much before anyone, right?

More or less. Although he did pioneer some aspects of the use of space in music composition, he was part of a much larger esthetic "movement" in the 1950's. You can't really say he started experimenting with "all that stuff" before Berio or Schaeffer, for instance.

brainpang wrote:
And of course the biggie, if not a down-right rip-off, is Frank's approximation of MOMENTE on the material that became 200 Motels.

What is the approximation? If it's just his use of moment form and discontinuity, then it's too superficial a connection to be considered an influence of Stockhausen on Zappa. As a matter of fact, Stravinsky was using "moment form" in his early works long before Stockhausen even invented the term, so that aspect of FZ's music is more likely a direct influence of Stravinsky (and of FZ's own experiments with tape editing) than of Stockhausen.

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