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1974 08 06&07 KCET Studios LA 'A Token Of His Extreme' 110 DVD_PAL (lordo)
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aybesea
Joined: 2005-06-13
Posts: 129
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Post 2005-07-18 16:39   [Quote] 
This is fantastic! Now I know how much of the '74 footage was left out of the Dub Room Special. Thanks, Lordo. clap
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rnrrafa
Joined: 2005-04-13
Posts: 5
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Post 2005-07-19 00:01   [Quote] 
Thanks

I was looking for it!

Rafa Rocks

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kevin.nowak
Joined: 2005-07-10
Posts: 1
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Post 2005-07-20 09:56   [Quote] 
my audio is nothing but fuzz can I fix it??
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Trip
Joined: 2005-06-17
Posts: 10
Location: Google earth captured me
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Post 2005-07-24 14:33   [Quote] 
Audio is OK. But this 70s video editing style might drive you nuts at some times.
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haab
Poster
Joined: 2005-06-18
Posts: 287
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Post 2005-07-26 19:38   [Quote] 
Is this a rip of the bootleg DVD that's on sale ovah heah in Sweden? Apparently, someone in Germany has made DVD of the Token show and got it distributed as the real McCoy.
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Tim
Joined: 2005-06-17
Posts: 244
Location: laguna beach, California
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Post 2005-07-28 04:49   [Quote] 
thank's, nice upgrade to my old VHS version

tim
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nicolin
Joined: 2005-06-17
Posts: 82
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Post 2005-07-31 11:34   [Quote] 
hi,
thanks for this dvd - I can't tell about its technical quality, but its musical quality is great !
thanks lordo
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Si_M
Joined: 2005-07-28
Posts: 81
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Post 2005-08-09 18:01   [Quote] 
Looking forward to this one thanks
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smackmybutt
Joined: 2005-06-23
Posts: 26
Location: Right here
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Post 2005-08-14 01:32   [Quote] 
Quote:
BTW, did you know a decent PAL/NTSC/Region free DVD player is only a hundred bucks or so these days?


The player is not the issue. PAL and NTSC are completely different formats which equate to different electrical cycles used in North America, Europe and elsewhere; 50Hz (Euro) vs. 60Hz (US) Video is made up of interlaced frames, 25 FPS in PAL and 29.97 FPS in NTSC. Color is handled differently between the two formats and the physical size is also different. PAL is 720 X 576 pixels and NTSC is 720 X 480.

As well as these parameters, the way in which fields are interlaced needs to be understood in converting one to the other, etc. This has nothing to do with your DVD player. You cannot playback PAL formatted video on an NTSC monitor or television without it looking horrible. Most modern European televisions will accommodate NTSC but the reverse is not true. PAL video needs to be reformatted to run on an NTSC system.
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flower punk
Joined: 2005-07-12
Posts: 22
Location: Massachusetts
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Post 2005-08-14 19:20   [Quote] 
smackmybutt wrote:
Quote:
BTW, did you know a decent PAL/NTSC/Region free DVD player is only a hundred bucks or so these days?


The player is not the issue. PAL and NTSC are completely different formats which equate to different electrical cycles used in North America, Europe and elsewhere; 50Hz (Euro) vs. 60Hz (US) Video is made up of interlaced frames, 25 FPS in PAL and 29.97 FPS in NTSC. Color is handled differently between the two formats and the physical size is also different. PAL is 720 X 576 pixels and NTSC is 720 X 480.

As well as these parameters, the way in which fields are interlaced needs to be understood in converting one to the other, etc. This has nothing to do with your DVD player. You cannot playback PAL formatted video on an NTSC monitor or television without it looking horrible. Most modern European televisions will accommodate NTSC but the reverse is not true. PAL video needs to be reformatted to run on an NTSC system.


Thats odd because I have many pal format dvd's the I play through region free dvd player and they look fine on my old sony trinitron ntsc tv from the 1980's(still a wonderful tv after all these years, 1983!). I always thought that the dvd player has alot to do with how the pal signal gets decoded which then sends the signal to the ntsc tv, but I could be way off. While I did notice the difference in the electrical cycles you talked about, it was far from horrible looking on my(old 21 inch) tv, maybe a newer and better television would show the difference in quality better.

Scott
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smackmybutt
Joined: 2005-06-23
Posts: 26
Location: Right here
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Post 2005-08-14 23:05   [Quote] 
There are plenty of places to read up on standards conversions on the web. Trust me, I do these conversions all the time. Motion is going to look really bad if the source material is PAL and playback is NTSC. There is usually "stair-stepping" -- jagged edges, or motion becomes extremely blurry or stroby. Your NTSC TV does not support 576 lines of vertical resolution so the image has to be squashed. There is no mechanism to detect and resize the video.

Most DVD PC software and hardware can play both NTSC and PAL video. Some PCs can only display the converted video on the computer monitor, but others can output it as a video signal for a TV.

Region free has nothing to do with PAL VS. NTSC. Setting up the region is done in DVD authoring. Your DVD player cannot convert frame rates or do field conversions nor can it convert source pixel size. There are players out there that will do a half-ass job of this but they are usually NTSC to PAL and not the other way around.

Most DVD players could care less if the data is formatted PAL or NTSC the difference is evident on an NTSC monitor or television. If it looks fine to you, that's great but I don't suggest a career in broadcasting.
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Father O'blivion
Joined: 2005-08-21
Posts: 4
Location: Illinois
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Post 2005-08-23 04:55   [Quote] 
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone that has kept this one going. Haven't had a chance to watch yet but looks great!
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janj
Joined: 2005-08-10
Posts: 62
Location: Delft. The Netherlands
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Post 2005-08-29 15:13   [Quote] 
It's still alive!

Many thanks tunes

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micktravis
Joined: 2005-06-13
Posts: 26
Post 2005-08-31 21:27   [Quote] 
smackmybutt wrote:
Quote:
BTW, did you know a decent PAL/NTSC/Region free DVD player is only a hundred bucks or so these days?


The player is not the issue. PAL and NTSC are completely different formats which equate to different electrical cycles used in North America, Europe and elsewhere; 50Hz (Euro) vs. 60Hz (US) Video is made up of interlaced frames, 25 FPS in PAL and 29.97 FPS in NTSC. Color is handled differently between the two formats and the physical size is also different. PAL is 720 X 576 pixels and NTSC is 720 X 480.

As well as these parameters, the way in which fields are interlaced needs to be understood in converting one to the other, etc. This has nothing to do with your DVD player. You cannot playback PAL formatted video on an NTSC monitor or television without it looking horrible. Most modern European televisions will accommodate NTSC but the reverse is not true. PAL video needs to be reformatted to run on an NTSC system.


I'm fullly aware of all these issues. Bear in mind that we're talking about a PAL DVD which originated in NTSC. The fields are already pretty screwed up because whoever did the original conversion used a cheap box. I generally use an Alchemist, which handles both the framerate conversion and resizing/field issues seamlessly.

Maybe you're unaware of the myriad DVD players available in the US that can do on the fly PAL-NTSC conversions? I would say it very much has to do with your DVD player. In PAL countries, of course, the players just output an 29.97 NTSC signal with a 25hz colour frame and most TVs can figure it out.

You are correct (here, and in your later post) that a conversion is generally not perfect. In particular, video sourced material doesn't convert well - there's no single reliable algorythm to change 25 interlaced frames/sec to 29.97 interlaced fps. But a telecine of a film in PAL looks absolutely amazing when transcoded to NTSC. The Alchemist scaler is just about perfect, and all that remains is to use the 25 fps material (which is played back at the wrong speed for PAL - film is almost 24 fps) as a source for standard NTSC 3:2 pulldown.

I know many post houses that (prior to HD) would only do a film transfer once, in PAL. They would then just convert to NTSC because it's faster and cheaper (and causes less wear on the neg) and the result would be indistinguishable from a true NTSC transfer.

So, anyway, thanks for the primer, but I'm already fully versed in the technical side of film and video. And I'll stand by my original position: a cheap grey market DVD player that costs well under 100 bucks in the US will convert a PAL disc to NTSC at a quality level that is completely acceptable to just about anybody who doesn't actually work in TV.
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smackmybutt
Joined: 2005-06-23
Posts: 26
Location: Right here
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Post 2005-09-02 04:47   [Quote] 
Yes, I'm in a post-production neighborhood but true, I wasn't aware of these decks going PAL - NTSC. Well hell that will save me a lot of trouble although it takes some of the fun out. I was just looking at the Toshiba SD740 so perhaps I'll pick one up and give it a whirl.

I've been doing software standards conversions on all of these zappa recordings and you sound knowledgeable enough to know the issues I've run into without my having to explain. I have settled into using FCP's Compressor 2 and have to say it does a very nice job on the standards conversions but some I have really wrestled with to get right. Along the way I have used After Effects, JES Deinterlacer and tried the Nattress filters for FCP. With software there is blending, there is some masking of the flaws inherent in converting. You mention "generally not perfect," would you please elaborate on what to expect because while I don't mind paying $120 or so to check into one of these decks (mind you I already have 3 burners and 3 additional players) I would like the move to be justifiable.

My work in video and motion graphics is an offshoot of work in animation and digital imagery which is an offshoot of working as a composer, musician and audio engineer. While reasonably technical my focus is more on the artistic side of content creation. Plus I have a paying job :0) and family so my plate is very full. I thank you for pointing me in the direction of these decks.
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