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staaan
Poster
Joined: 2013-03-09
Posts: 257
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Post 2019-08-30 01:26   [Quote] 
Tero wrote:
It's that Internet. It allowed all the trump fans and brexit fans to flourish and fed them all that foxnews breitbart stuff. Which they wanted to believe before they heard it..


I agree about the internet, the news media and will add social media.

If only someone could have written a song, say back in the early 70's, foreseeing the effects of media and its monetary value on the clueless masses? oh wait someone did

"I'm the tool of the Government and industry too for I am destined to rule and regulate you....... Your mind is totally controlled It has been stuffed into my mold and you will do as you are told Until the rights to you are sold"

Social Media data mining and the resultant manipulation and monetization is a trillion $$$ a year industry
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belew-vibe
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Joined: 2011-08-27
Posts: 1099
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Post 2019-08-31 06:28   [Quote] 
The political climate can't be as vicious as America, but I am starting to wonder...

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Last edited by belew-vibe on 2019-08-31 20:01; edited 1 time in total
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StatusBaby
Site Admin
Joined: 2004-06-28
Posts: 3449
Location: London, England
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Post 2019-08-31 11:49   [Quote] 
father-0blivion wrote:
Yeah! Good old democracy!! Get people to vote for something but do everything possible to make sure they don't get it if it isn't what you wanted!


Don't get me started.

No deal was never an option - Farage pushed the Norway model
All other leave politicians told us we'd be leaving with a deal.

NO-ONE - not a single one of the spineless lying cunts - told us a vote for Brexit was a vote for no deal, leaving the UK as the only country in the world with not a single trade arrangement in place.

There is no democratic mandate for a No Deal Brexit - we know it, our MPs know it, and Boris knows it - so he's shutting down the Mother of Parliaments to enforce it.

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Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them - Karl Popper

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Mr_Green_Genes
Busy Poster
Joined: 2006-03-15
Posts: 591
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Post 2019-08-31 12:04   [Quote] 
yetanother wrote:
Welcome to former-country limbo. Ask me anything

Sad, but true...

DLHotch wrote:
I just wish more of the right-wing co-conspirators would finally admit that they made a horrible mistake by "saving the USA from Hillary and her 30,000 emails."

...or saving Brazil from the evil workers party, only to put the “smallest, dullest, pettiest” of leaders in power...

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father-0blivion
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Joined: 2012-02-07
Posts: 3987
Location: Dwarf Nebula
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Post 2019-08-31 12:31   [Quote] 
StatusBaby wrote:

NO-ONE - not a single one of the spineless lying cunts - told us a vote for Brexit was a vote for no deal..

Maybe they thought it was obvious that no-deal was a possibility if the leave vote won and didn't need to tell us, or maybe the remain side should have told/warned us... The problem with no-deal is if you take it off the table now your negotiating position is knackered....

Anyway, just to remind people I'm trying to play devil's advocate and don't really want to be bashed for views I don't hold... (I'm not saying that's happened I've just got a feeling it might do..) Mr. Green
I find the extreme views on both sides equally horrifying..

I just don't like the idea that a vote - any vote - given to the people by Parliament (not just the Government) can be overturned by MPs if the result is the 'wrong' one...
But, I'm still more worried about WHY millions and millions of people voted the way they did..... Are they all right-wing bigots? Or mis-informed social media suckers? Or is it because they feel they aren't listened to on other things and it was a chance of a protest vote? (Environmental mayhem/global warming and increasing religious intolerance/influence may be two examples of 'non-listening'..). Unfortunately, what the ''over 50%'' voted for will not make these things better and will probably make them worse....

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''Just consider this..... You can be scared when it gets too real...''
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boguspomp
Busy Poster
Joined: 2004-11-30
Posts: 732
Location: Somewhere in Italy
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Post 2019-08-31 15:25   [Quote] 
The problem is, among others, that when the time came to vote, the most important and most affected people went out to party and to chill instead of to vote. Even 10% of immigrants voted for the the Brexit, because they didn't understand what it meant. I saw a lot of coverage and all those stupid/intelligent college people said they didn't go to vote, because the numbers before the election predicted that Brexit would never happen.
Now you have Orange head number two in charge and he just disabled the parliament and you non-voters will regret this for a hundred years to come.
I live in Italy now for a while and thx to some stupid over confidence of the third Orange Head, the Italians might be able to avoid another crazy crash for a while.

Be God with us all in these insane hateful times.
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StatusBaby
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Joined: 2004-06-28
Posts: 3449
Location: London, England
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Post 2019-09-02 17:14   [Quote] 
father-0blivion wrote:

Maybe they thought it was obvious that no-deal was a possibility if the leave vote won


No - that's not the case at all - they specifically ruled out a no deal - Farage banged on about Norway - see videos here https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1112848342890041344

The official Brexit campaign stated: "There is a free trade zone stretching all the way from Iceland to the Russian border. We will still be part of it after we Vote Leave." Daniel Hannan, a Tory MEP and one of the faces of Vote Leave, declared: "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market." Boris Johnson declared in the aftermath of the vote that Britain would retain access to the single market.

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Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them - Karl Popper

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father-0blivion
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Joined: 2012-02-07
Posts: 3987
Location: Dwarf Nebula
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Post 2019-09-03 06:59   [Quote] 
Considering that all three main/biggest political parties were campaigning to remain you would think they would've done a better job of pointing out all the untruths being spouted by the other side.... After all, being economical with the truth has always been part of ANY vote or election, and always will be...
All this 'lying bus' and no-deal stuff should have been brought up BEFORE the vote, once the vote had taken place it put democracy fans in a difficult position..

And now, because everyone knows there are people who couldn't take losing, like Clegg, Hammond and that bloke who spends all his time shouting ''STOP BREXIT!'' behind newsreaders, who would reverse the referendum result in a heartbeat, there's suspicion that any more delays will be used to stop the UK leaving altogether....
The net result is that the quite reasonable middle-ground option where people want to respect the result but only with some sort of deal is no longer being considered..

It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always gets in...

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''Just consider this..... You can be scared when it gets too real...''
(FZ: ''It Just Might Be A One-Shot Deal'')

'' 'n pretty soon, there won't be no street, for dummies to jog on, or doggies to dog on, religious fanatics, can make it be all gone...''
(FZ: ''Dumb All Over'')
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Dark Clothes
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Joined: 2012-03-13
Posts: 647
Post 2019-09-03 08:07   [Quote] 
What a stupid game Cameron set in motion!

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franktomatozappa
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Joined: 2010-08-28
Posts: 2426
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Post 2019-09-04 02:35   [Quote] 
Dark Clothes wrote:
What a stupid game Cameron set in motion!


THAT's what happens when you mess about with a pig's head..... Rolling Eyes disbelief
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StatusBaby
Site Admin
Joined: 2004-06-28
Posts: 3449
Location: London, England
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Post 2019-09-04 09:41   [Quote] 
father-0blivion wrote:
All this 'lying bus'....should have been brought up BEFORE the vote


Erm....It was brought up before the referendum - in fact the UK Statistics Authority consistently and repeatedly told the various Leave campaigns that the figure was wrong! You're reading the wrong papers!

"once the vote had taken place it put democracy fans in a difficult position" this phrase - more than anything else you've written - displays the problem. Democracy does not mean I should be silenced, or forced to change my mind or bow to the majority. In fact the idea that I should give up my ideals, forget my aim and aspirations, and follow what the majority want is anathema to democracy. Democracy means the freedom to campaign for what you believe - regardless of the opinions of others. Steven Bray - who has protested outside Parliament every single day since the result against leaving the EU is perfectly within his democratic rights - and to suggest otherwise is profoundly undemocratic.

The problem with Brexiteers is that they only want to honour one tiny part of democracy - the referendum result - so let's look at that.
The European Union Referendum Bill 2015-16 states:
"This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative.....The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented". Because the Referendum was legally advisory only, the Government denied the vote to British Citizens who had (under perfectly legitimate Freedom of Movement arrangements) lived in EU for more than 15 years. The Government also stopped 16-18 years olds from voting - even though they had been allowed to vote in the recent independence vote for Scotland, and even though they will suffer the results of any decision for longer than any of us. Finally all EU citizens living in the UK (again under perfectly legitimate Freedom of Movement arrangements) who had paid taxes and contributed to UK society were denied a vote. The reason given for denying all of these groups a vote was that the Referendum was advisory only.

Both the official Vote Leave campaign and the unofficial Leave.EU were found guilty of illegal activity - they were both fined for breaking the rules of electoral spending, and Leave.EU have been referred to the National Crime Agency in an investigation which is ongoing. There are also ongoing investigations into Russian interference in the referendum being undertaken by the UK Electoral Commission, the UK Parliament's Culture Select Committee, and the United States Senate, on Russian interference via dark money and troll farms.

But bizarrely illegal activity by both the official Vote Leave and the unofficial Leave.EU campaigns in the run-up to the Brexit vote can (beyond the fines) have no legal consequences. British elections are guaranteed by law. If evidence of serious cheating is uncovered they can be scrutinised and overturned by high court judges and a re-run demanded. But because the Brexit referendum was only an advisory vote, there are no legal channels to challenge the result. In black and white - if the Brexit campaign had been a vote for an MP, the vote would have been overturned by the courts and a new voted demanded. We are in a surreal Catch 22 situation where the result which was obtained illegally cannot be challenged by the courts because the referendum was in legal terms advisory only.

All of this really wouldn't have mattered if Leave had won by a big margin - but they didn't - as we all know the vote was 48% - 52% - the difference in numerical terms equivalent to just 2.7% of the registered vote, which could easily have been accounted for by the disenfranchisement and electoral cheating outlined above. So when people talk about a democratic mandate to leave, they are wrong - there is no democratic mandate. The vote was a farce due to willful misrepresentations, dark money, foreign influences and financial fraud on spending. If you're a "fan" of democracy you should be outside Parliament every day with Steven Bray - who is not demanding that the referendum result be ignored - but is instead demanding a second proper and honest vote.

I realise that we are several years on - you may want to refer to the elections held since - or any other subsequent developments - I am willing to continue the debate - it's what I've been doing for the past 3 years in person at Parliament, by post and email to MPs, at protests and demonstrations and online. But I respect that this is first and foremost a Zappa forum and this debate may not be welcomed by all here. I will continue the debate but suspend by Admin responsibilities in this thread - if other Admins feel it inappropriate or there is no desire for continued discussion among my fellow Zappateers then the debate ends.

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Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them - Karl Popper

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drdork
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Joined: 2008-04-05
Posts: 4364
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Post 2019-09-04 10:14   [Quote] 
StatusBaby wrote:
But I respect that this is first and foremost a Zappa forum and this debate may not be welcomed by all here.

I for one found your post very informative. Thank you.
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TPS
Site Admin
Joined: 2005-02-26
Posts: 2736
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Post 2019-09-04 10:59   [Quote] 
drdork wrote:
StatusBaby wrote:
But I respect that this is first and foremost a Zappa forum and this debate may not be welcomed by all here.

I for one found your post very informative. Thank you.

Agreed!
I think there is more information here than I have received from all the news sources across the media.
Thanks SB

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wingedeelfingerling
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Joined: 2009-09-03
Posts: 1535
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Post 2019-09-04 12:28   [Quote] 
Well put Status good to hear a position spelt out without gratuitous insults and slogans.

I think the alt right call that ‘fake news’ or ‘project fear’ because they are unable to counter in the same manner.

Interesting times but I detect the fight back starting.
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father-0blivion
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Joined: 2012-02-07
Posts: 3987
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Post 2019-09-04 12:56   [Quote] 
To come to your final point first, yes. of course this is a Zappa forum and I completely agree that all here may not want this discussion... If the admins close the thread then I totally understand although I would say I've been enlightened already by some of the things you've written and would like to hear more on that side of the argument.

I'm obviously not equipped with all the facts and figures and probably the intellectual ability to have a point for point debate but I can convey the general 'feelings' of the leave side. ('Brexiteers' is not a term I'm keen on, although it may be apt for the group of elite Tory MPs with dodgy motives I don't think it applies to the millions and millions of people in the country at large who wanted to - and still do - leave the EU).

Of course I wasn't suggesting that the right to protest isn't/shouldn't be a right, the guy wouldn't be there if it wasn't, I just used him as an example of people who are unhappy with leaving. Nobody said anything about silencing people or making them abandon their ideals and aspirations...Just to have a think about if it had been the other way round.... All the talk of an unfair referendum would have never materialized.

It's easy for us who live in London - where everything is - to have a benevolent view of things but there are plenty of people all over the country who feel a bit forgotten... they don't have much and when they see what looks like a cosy club for businesses to get easy cheap labour from they don't like it and want something done.
People see things quite simply.... If about half the country wants one thing and the other half wants the opposite how do we decide what to do? The vast majority of MPs (500+) voted to have a referendum to ''decide'' once and for all. Whichever side got the most votes would be the way to go... Simplistic, yes, but that's the way people see it.
There's an overall impression that although people are saying they want another referendum what they really mean is they just want to stay in the EU. The protests are seen by some (not me!!) as the acts of bad losers who will agitate until they get what they want - And to take a completely impartial view it can look a bit like that at times...
Demanding a 'second proper and honest vote' IS demanding the first vote result be ignored. It's the same thing.

Also I'm a bit confused about the 'illegal activity' argument... I get what your saying but surely if something is illegal then it's against the law? And if it's against the law then there is are legal consequences.. otherwise it's not illegal in the first place. You seem to be saying it 'would be illegal in a different circumstance'...

Whether they 'won' or not the fact is there are roughly 17 million people in this country who wanted to leave the EU 3 years ago... They are no minority... if the original result is 'overturned' they will all still be there....

_________________
''Just consider this..... You can be scared when it gets too real...''
(FZ: ''It Just Might Be A One-Shot Deal'')

'' 'n pretty soon, there won't be no street, for dummies to jog on, or doggies to dog on, religious fanatics, can make it be all gone...''
(FZ: ''Dumb All Over'')
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