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1988 Tour Horn Charts
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colelumpkinvevo
Joined: 2018-11-17
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Post 2019-02-05 18:55   [Quote] 
hey all!

does anybody have any information on the official horn charts used on the 1988 tour? did FZ write them all out himself or perhaps bruce fowler helped with arranging? and might they be available somewhere for reference?

cheers,
cole
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yetanother
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Post 2019-02-05 19:10   [Quote] 
Some manuscript pages from the 1972 tour have turned up at auctions, but I never saw any from the 1988 tour.

Arranging credits, when not FZ's, are given in the releases (if I'm not mistaken, Scott Thunes is credited as arranger in Strictly Genteel and Stravinsky's Royal March).

As for engraving work, I can't imagine FZ going through the touble of copying parts out by hand at that point of his life. That part was probably done by one or more copyists. I imagine the most practical way to do it then would have been to type everything into the Synclavier and print out the parts.

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oofers
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Post 2019-02-05 20:54   [Quote] 
yetanother wrote:
I imagine the most practical way to do it then would have been to type everything into the Synclavier and print out the parts.


Do you know if the Synclavier was able to print complex subdivisions like the nested tuplets in TBP or Sinister Footwear? I've always wondered.

Whenever I see old video of its monitor, slowly drawing out each measure, it makes me think it would be limited in what it can denote on screen. I'm thinking of the things that come into to play nowadays with Finale that can become a headache, like beam angles and other fine adjustments. I wonder if it was that robust?
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drdork
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Post 2019-02-05 22:21   [Quote] 
yetanother wrote:
Arranging credits, when not FZ's, are given in the releases (if I'm not mistaken, Scott Thunes is credited as arranger in Strictly Genteel and Stravinsky's Royal March).

Kurt McGettrick did the horn arrangement for Strictly Genteel.

Scott Thunes arranged the Stravinsky and Bartók pieces in the Packard Goose medley.
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rubbershirt
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Post 2019-02-05 23:17   [Quote] 
I think I read a story about how Stairway to Heaven morphed on the initiative of one of the horn players and if memory serves they surprised frank with it in rehearsal and he liked it. Can anyone confirm or add to this? 1988 Was A Million years ago Wink
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Post 2019-02-05 23:28   [Quote] 
rubbershirt wrote:
I think I read a story about how Stairway to Heaven morphed on the initiative of one of the horn players and if memory serves they surprised frank with it in rehearsal and he liked it. Can anyone confirm or add to this?

Mike Keneally taught the solo to Paul Carman and they played it together. See The Big Note, p. 39 (complete with invalid link to Mike's website, even though I updated the links last year).
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pbuzby
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Post 2019-02-06 01:17   [Quote] 
Keneally's diaries mention sometime in April that FZ did write out a chart (for Dessicated/Yuppies, I think) and mentioned how long it had been since he wrote music by hand.
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yetanother
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Post 2019-02-06 02:15   [Quote] 
oofers wrote:
Do you know if the Synclavier was able to print complex subdivisions like the nested tuplets in TBP or Sinister Footwear? I've always wondered.

I assume so, especially considering FZ's Synclavier music in general was rhythmically far more complex than his instrumental pieces. I have two movements from Times Beach that seem to have been made on the Synclavier, and while they look like shit engraving-wise, all the tuplets seem to be properly aligned.

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scherbe2003
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Post 2019-02-06 02:29   [Quote] 
There is an interview with David Ocker and comments by Art Jarvinen, where re the infamous While You Were Art performance one of them says that FZ didn't deliver a proper score to the ensemble but a synclavier printout which was nearly illegible because the synclavier was not exactly an advanced engraving tool. From this I would conclude that the horn charts were certainly not synclavier prints but done by some copyist.
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yetanother
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Post 2019-02-06 02:32   [Quote] 
scherbe2003 wrote:
FZ didn't deliver a proper score to the ensemble but a synclavier printout which was nearly illegible because the synclavier was not exactly an advanced engraving tool.

That doesn't mean you couldn't make the music legible by putting some work into it. I don't know any engraving software that will make the music come out exactly the way you like it without a lot of tweaking and manual adjustments.

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yetanother
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Post 2019-02-06 02:42   [Quote] 
Here's an excerpt from Times Beach. As you can see, it's ugly as fuck, but perfectly legible... (well, almost - except for the shitty beaming... maybe that's what prompted Ocker's comment?)

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arf
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Post 2019-02-06 10:51   [Quote] 
A section of the 'America Drinks' chart from 1972 has been used in the 1988 version of 'Big Swifty'.
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oofers
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Post 2019-02-06 16:21   [Quote] 
yetanother wrote:
Here's an excerpt from Times Beach. As you can see, it's ugly as fuck, but perfectly legible... (well, almost - except for the shitty beaming... maybe that's what prompted Ocker's comment?)


That picture is interesting. What makes you think it was definitely generated with the Synclavier?

I see aliasing in the ties which certainly indicates it is digital in origin, which I guess you could say means it probably came from the Synclavier since FZ worked with that machine so much. But this is "Times Beach" which means the score in the photo would have been created for The EM in 1992 and there were already scorewriters in existence then (Finale first released in 1988), so isn't that a possibility?

I'm impressed it looks as good as it does, actually. It does seem odd that the Synclavier could generate something this reasonably good-looking and yet not have a similar interface for data input. From what I have read, I got the impression that every note was entered with the keyboard, as in MIDI values, and not, for example, placing a note on a staff.

Thanks for sharing that image.
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yetanother
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Post 2019-02-06 19:40   [Quote] 
oofers wrote:
That picture is interesting. What makes you think it was definitely generated with the Synclavier?

First off, I took the picture from my own copy of the score. You can't see in such detail on the picture, but the slurs, ties and beams are all horribly pixelated. This is because it was obviously printed on a dot matrix printer, and the score was published by Munchkin Music before the Yellow Shark concerts.

Why before? Well, all the music presented at the YS concerts was transcribed and/or arranged by Ali Askin in the early '90s, and much of it was also revised by FZ in the process. He added contrabass to the movements from None of the Above, for instance, and bass clarinet to the ones from Times Beach (as well as a multiphonic not present in the original version, though that may have been introduced during the rehearsals).

I never saw the current version of the Times Beach score, but I have some of the YS scores, all copyrighted 1993, thus published after the CD came out (complete with the exact duration of the pieces as they appear on the CD - an information obviously not added by FZ, who was aware that all tracks included a considerable portion of applause and the tempi were in general much slower than the values given on the scores), and they are all professionally engraved with a clearly defined visual identity - in fact, they look completely different from earlier Munchkin Music scores, which were all copied by hand by FZ's copyists (including the FZ Guitar Book), and remind me more of some of Boosey & Hawke's editions, but I digress.

This score is obviously earlier, not the least because it's copyrighted 1985. The parts of Times Beach that made it into the YS are the second and third movements - this version, which is obviously not complete, includes the second and fourth movements (somehow mislabeled as first and third, then corrected by hand by someone else, apparently not FZ). It is scored exclusively for traditional wind quintet, and features the kind of shitty engraving you would maybe hand to the Aspen Wind Quintet, but definitely not to the Ensemble Modern.

I have no actual proof that it comes from the Synclavier, but a) I am quite sure this piece, as well as all of the previously unreleased content featured on the YS, was originally written on the Synclavier (even if not intended for it), b) I have never seen an engraving software produce results this ugly - not even Encore - and I have quite a bit of experience with engraving software, and c) it makes no sense to hire a copyist to transcribe something you already typed into the computer, unless it's to turn it into a radically better-looking and more inteligible score, which was obviously not the case.

I put 2 and 2 together, but feel free to do your own math Wink

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Last edited by yetanother on 2019-02-06 19:54; edited 1 time in total
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yetanother
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Post 2019-02-06 22:02   [Quote] 
oofers wrote:
It does seem odd that the Synclavier could generate something this reasonably good-looking and yet not have a similar interface for data input. From what I have read, I got the impression that every note was entered with the keyboard, as in MIDI values, and not, for example, placing a note on a staff.

Well, we didn't have mouses back then, which would have made it considerably more difficult (and required a more sophisticated interface) to place a note on the staff than just type it in as text. Also, processing (especially graphic processing) was extremely slow and RAM was limited, so you had no real-time feedback - you had to type the score first, then have it rendered to see how it looked. Having said that, the bits of on-screen Synclavier sheet music I saw (on Video From Hell and Peefeeyatko) didn't look bad at all.

Not everyone cares about being able to place a note on the staff, apparently, or Lilypond wouldn't have become so popular...

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