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staaan
Joined: 2013-03-09
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Post 2018-12-06 03:21   [Quote] 
Curious as to what other Zappateers think about Pharoah Sanders sound, style and free jazz in general.

I love his melodic stuff on albums like Thembi & Elevation yet to this day and it's been years I'm still trying to wrap my head around some of his wild horn solos. Some of it, at least to my ears, reminds me of early Mothers.

If I'm not mistaken Archie Shepp was from the Free Jazz period?
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belew-vibe
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Post 2018-12-06 06:18   [Quote] 
The first footage I saw of him he shouted back into the horn... punk as fuck. I loved him since then, every note.

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wingedeelfingerling
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Post 2018-12-06 08:47   [Quote] 
genius saw him in LONDON a few times back in the day... when he plays 2 horns at once incredible... I love the old jazz masters ... its one of the reasons I hate the erzatz jazz of the later ZAPPA bands no feel or soul like the man said 'jazz delicious hot but disgusting cold'...
If you want to try some weird shit listen to Albert Ayler groovy baby!
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cookie_manager
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Post 2018-12-06 09:13   [Quote] 
I've been a gigging free jazz drummer now for +20 years, so that says a lot about what I think about that style. Razz

Last year I delved into Sun Ra's catalogue, and liked Sanders' contributions to the 1964-band... for me actually the most interesting factor there. Similar with what he plays in Coltrane's late ensembles. I love Peter Br÷tzmann, but Pharoah Sanders achieved the same kind of sound probably a bit earlier, having a more profound basis I guess, but with a similar radical consistency - at least in that 60s period*.
Of course Ayler needs to be thrown in here too, and I also remember some very harsh sax playing in Sun Ra's band recorded in 1963... probably Pat Patrick and/or John Gilmore and/or Marshall Allen - they get overlooked too often as early 60s groundbreakers. Anyway in that energy-playing department, Sanders' for me always has been a very impressive early voice. Plus: Never heard anybody else use flutter tongue like that in the overblown altissimo register of the tenor sax. If I see right, that's still a unique sound to this day.

On the other hand I never liked any of his records as a leader.
Wait... "Pharoah's First" on ESP might be one I like... didn't listen to it for a long time, I think I found it quite ok.

Shepp... sure, started to get recognition in Cecil Taylor's bands ~1960, then those still post-boppish things with Bill Dixon and New York Contemporary Five (1962/63). Then his output got quite varied... I know several Shepp-LPs from 1964-67 and some of that stuff is radically out free blowing but much of the time rooted in traditional music forms. He more and more integrated blues, older jazz, sometimes a bit funk, african folk music etc. into his music, but puts his expressive playing on top that often won't hide where it comes from: free jazz!

* This one featuring Sanders is very very close to Br÷tzmann's sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez7B77mk1WQ ... check back for example with PB's playing on "Stringer 3" by the London Jazz Composers' Orchestra. I'm not aware Br÷tzmann acknowledges a Sanders-influence - maybe they indeed developed that stuff independently - but there's quite a bit of overlap in what they do/did even down to certain small sound details.

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Dark Clothes
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Post 2018-12-06 10:06   [Quote] 
I got into that quite a bit around 2000, because I live close to a great jazz festival (Kongsberg). Saw Evan Parker and wondered wtf is going on and took it from there. It helped that old favourites like Fred Frith were part of the scene. Mats Gustafsson was fresh back then, and Br°tzmann made sense to me - "if you can play hard, why not do it". That 's punk. Ken Vandermark, always great. Now the times of fresh young guns in the free jazz world seems a bit past, but maybe it's me moving on.

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belew-vibe
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Post 2018-12-06 10:13   [Quote] 
Dark Clothes wrote:
I got into that quite a bit around 2000, because I live close to a great jazz festival (Kongsberg). Saw Evan Parker and wondered wtf is going on and took it from there. It helped that old favourites like Fred Frith were part of the scene. Mats Gustafsson was fresh back then, and Br°tzmann made sense to me - "if you can play hard, why not do it". That 's punk. Ken Vandermark, always great. Now the times of fresh young guns in the free jazz world seems a bit past, but maybe it's me moving on.


Damn, I love Mats... and Tim Berne... and Zorn...

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cookie_manager
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Post 2018-12-06 10:15   [Quote] 
a liitle post script to my post above:

Listening to the linked track again, I remembered I know that manic sax sound from somewhere else too: Mel Collins in King Crimson 1971/72! Check out the finale of Groon on Earthbound as one example. Next thing coming to mind: KC played Sanders' "The Creator has a Master Plan" at the Summit Studios 1972.

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drdork
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Post 2018-12-06 12:20   [Quote] 
cookie_manager wrote:
I also remember some very harsh sax playing in Sun Ra's band recorded in 1963... probably Pat Patrick and/or John Gilmore and/or Marshall Allen

Speaking of Pat Patrick, did you know that his son Deval Patrick was governor of Massachusetts for eight years? Yesterday he announced that he won't run for president in 2020.
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CheepnisAroma
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Post 2018-12-06 15:05   [Quote] 
drdork wrote:
Speaking of Pat Patrick, did you know that his son Deval Patrick was governor of Massachusetts for eight years? Yesterday he announced that he won't run for president in 2020.

News!
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CheepnisAroma
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Post 2018-12-06 15:45   [Quote] 
I used to be a big fan of free jazz but for some reason I no longer listen to this kind of music.

In (roughly) 1993 I saw Cecil Taylor in the outskirts of Paris. With a cello/bass/percussion ensemble.

Zorn, I saw Masada once, a few years later, and it was great. BTW I saw the Grande Mothers at the same place. The venue had a different name when I saw Masada. Time flies Rolling Eyes

Again at the same place I saw Ponty live in 1998 or 1999, a private concert, I managed to grab tickets from a colleague. Gosh it was so boring even Jean-Luc himself seemed to be bored yawn
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oofers
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Post 2018-12-06 21:38   [Quote] 
When I knew nothing about the history of jazz, I started getting into it via Coltrane. Bought several albums without knowing what the hell I was doing, what era each recording represented, and so on.

Although I didn't understand it, I knew I liked the intensity of Meditations. I thought "wow, that Coltrane is doing stuff you don't hear on A Love Supreme"

Later I realized that was Pharoah's sound I was digging!

Then, in the 90s, I received his latest CD as a thank-you gift for donating to our local radio station, and was disappointed.
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staaan
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Post 2018-12-06 22:01   [Quote] 
Great replies, thanks!!!

King Kong comes to mind, any other FZ compositions that might fit the bill?
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pbuzby
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Post 2018-12-07 01:15   [Quote] 
I saw Zorn in 1991 with Naked City (great show) and a few years later with Cobra, which was basically 50 minutes of randomness before reaching an interesting effects combination in the last 10 minutes or so, which he brought back during the encore.

I saw Pharoah Sanders in the late 90's or early 00's and by then he was playing more "in the tradition." I can enjoy his Impulse albums although in limited doses.
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cookie_manager
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Post 2018-12-07 07:33   [Quote] 
staaan wrote:
Great replies, thanks!!!

King Kong comes to mind, any other FZ compositions that might fit the bill?
The most "free jazzy" Zappa-record I can think of is "Weasels Ripped My Flesh". It's all quite controlled and structured via those handsigns by FZ, but there's a lot of free blowing in the horns, obviously.
On "Uncle Meat": The collective improv in "Prelude to King Kong" always reminded me of my first encounter with free jazz (Gunter Hampel). Oh - and of course: "Ian Underwood Whips It Out"!! - again FZ gave it a frame: fast 5/8, near the end even a harmonic structure, but I.U. is out there...

One of the most free-formish "King Kong"s might be on "Tis the Season To Be Jelly"?
(while I found several other early concert versions to be too-long rock jam fests)

There's moments in those long guitar solos with Colaiuta on drums when the tempo is quite unclear and FZ takes his melodic liberties, sometimes crosses the line to pure sound texture - when they're on that level, it has the same exciting effect some free jazz has on me.
A colleague of mine likes to compare Frank Zappa/Vince Colaiuta to the tandem John Coltrane/Elvin Jones.

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uncle max
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Post 2018-12-07 07:56   [Quote] 
cookie_manager wrote:

A colleague of mine likes to compare Frank Zappa/Vince Colaiuta to the tandem John Coltrane/Elvin Jones.


Sometimes I have the same feeling

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