Tracker|Orphanz|FZShows|Catalogue| FAQ |Search |Register|Mail us

Profile |Log in to check your private messages |Log in|Chat Room|Scrapbook|Zappateers map
Was Zappa a Bad Composer?
Goto page:   Previous  1, 2  
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.zappateers.com Forum Index -> Zappalogy
Author Message
stillbob
Joined: 2018-03-20
Posts: 32
Location: The Purple Lagoon
EU.gif
Post 2018-03-21 00:46   [Quote] 
Sometimes it just ain't why why why, it just fucking IS!

Thanks for the dissertation link scherbe!
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
Terrapin Station
Joined: 2018-06-03
Posts: 1
Post 2018-06-03 02:17   [Quote] 
FeelersRebo, I completely reject the contextual framework you're approaching this from.

First, I hate the term "functional harmony" and the idea that we can separate harmony into "functional" and "non-functional," with the former mapping to harmonic conventions of classical music prior to the harmonic experimentation, beginning in the late 1800s, of modern and avant garde music. The idea of that is as bad as a snobby "high art"/"low art" distinction. It tries to make a very conformist, conservative, traditional approach a hegemonic norm--and that's especially apparent by suggesting that adherence to those conventions would somehow have an implication as to whether a composer is good or bad.

Really, all harmony is functional in a literal sense.

So did Zappa conform to the harmonic conventions of composers such as Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, etc.? No. And conforming to those conventions has nothing to do with being a good composer. Zappa was influenced by more modern and avant garde composers, including Stravinsky, Varese (both of which were well-known influences on him) as well as folks like Harry Partch, Stockhausen, Crumb, etc.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
drdork
Contributor
Joined: 2008-04-05
Posts: 3852
canada.gif
Contributor
Post 2018-06-03 03:14   [Quote] 
Is the Zappanale Site a Bad Doberan?
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
rubbershirt
Poster
Joined: 2013-07-25
Posts: 427
usa.gif
Post 2018-06-03 04:47   [Quote] 
drdork wrote:
Is the Zappanale Site a Bad Doberan?

If you meant to type ‘at Bad Doberan’ the festival is at an open air horse track a few kilometers down the road, but the soft opening is in Bad Doberan and that village functions as a sort of hub.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
stillbob
Joined: 2018-03-20
Posts: 32
Location: The Purple Lagoon
EU.gif
Post 2018-06-04 02:58   [Quote] 
rubbershirt wrote:
drdork wrote:
Is the Zappanale Site a Bad Doberan?

If you meant to type ‘at Bad Doberan’ the festival is at an open air horse track a few kilometers down the road, but the soft opening is in Bad Doberan and that village functions as a sort of hub.


lol
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
Thinman
Joined: 2007-10-07
Posts: 81
EU.gif
Post 2018-06-04 10:39   [Quote] 
Terrapin Station wrote:
FeelersRebo, I completely reject the contextual framework you're approaching this from.

First, I hate the term "functional harmony" and the idea that we can separate harmony into "functional" and "non-functional," with the former mapping to harmonic conventions of classical music prior to the harmonic experimentation, beginning in the late 1800s, of modern and avant garde music. The idea of that is as bad as a snobby "high art"/"low art" distinction. It tries to make a very conformist, conservative, traditional approach a hegemonic norm--and that's especially apparent by suggesting that adherence to those conventions would somehow have an implication as to whether a composer is good or bad.

Really, all harmony is functional in a literal sense.

So did Zappa conform to the harmonic conventions of composers such as Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, etc.? No. And conforming to those conventions has nothing to do with being a good composer. Zappa was influenced by more modern and avant garde composers, including Stravinsky, Varese (both of which were well-known influences on him) as well as folks like Harry Partch, Stockhausen, Crumb, etc.

Right! It's not only the influences. People like FeelersRebo are mistaking analysis for rules. If certain music from the past is analysed and seems to function a certain way, that doesn't mean all music from then on has to follow those methods as rules and anybody who doesn't follow those rules would be a bad composer.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
McMick
Joined: 2015-06-26
Posts: 24
Post 2018-07-14 04:10   [Quote] 
I don't know if I'm adding anything here or just making a speed bump, since my technical expertise is obviously far below that of all you nice folks, but on reading this thread I am reminded of a clip of Dweezil talking to Steve Vai regarding a little notebook of exercises Steve cooked up for Dweezil to practice with when he was just starting to learn the guitar. At around 6:10 they are talking about the different modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) and Steve said something to the effect that a lot of guitar players, and Frank himself, looked at all the different modes as variations on Dorian, presumably because of the influence of blues in rock, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZg_VYSoWcw

I don't know how relevant this is to your analysis, but I figure if Steve Vai said it, it's probably insightful.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
polydigm
Joined: 2005-10-28
Posts: 122
Location: Adelaide, Australia
australia.gif
Post 2018-07-15 01:11   [Quote] 
Historically, music theory always comes after the fact. Thinman's point about mistaking analysis for rules is a good one. I view composition like sculpture. A very over simplified way of putting it is that you have some kind of feeling and you carve it out of sound materials. Of course, having a well developed ear and sense of rhythm and a useful panoply of well understood sound materials helps. Working on training your ear, doing rhythm exercises and studying various theories of music helps to develop those capabilities, but true composition goes beyond just applying theories.

Any system based on twelve semitones, diatonic or otherwise, might seem to be a theory that many composers adhere to - I do mostly, but other than that, to quote Vincent Persichetti in his Twentieth Century Harmony: "Any tone can succeed any other tone, any tone can sound simultaneously with any other tone or tones, and any group of tones can be followed by any other group of tones, just as any degree of tension or nuance can occur in any medium under any kind of stress or duration. Successful projection will depend on the contextual and formal conditions that prevail, and upon the skill and the soul of the composer."

_________________
It's not what you think, it's what you do.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM]  [www] 
McMick
Joined: 2015-06-26
Posts: 24
Post 2018-08-04 16:26   [Quote] 
Wow man, that Persichetti guy is heavy!
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
polydigm
Joined: 2005-10-28
Posts: 122
Location: Adelaide, Australia
australia.gif
Post 2018-08-10 21:11   [Quote] 
Heavy in what sense?

_________________
It's not what you think, it's what you do.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM]  [www] 
New topic title
Forum for new topic
 
Page 2 of 2 Goto page:   Previous  1, 2
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.zappateers.com Forum Index -> Zappalogy All times are GMT + 1 Hour

 

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group, TorrentPier © Meithar