Tracker|Orphanz|FZShows|Catalogue| FAQ |Search |Register|Mail us

Profile |Log in to check your private messages |Log in|Chat Room|Scrapbook|Zappateers map
Stravinsky's "Trois poemes de la lyrique japonaise" vs. "Uncle Meat"  
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.zappateers.com Forum Index -> Zappalogy
Author Message
cookie_manager
Power Poster
Joined: 2007-12-20
Posts: 2154
Post 2014-10-04 08:22   [Quote] 
I'm currently listening to a load of Strawinsky, and in the last 20 seconds of his "Trois poemes de la lyrique japonaise" we get to hear the opening motiv of "Uncle Meat" including a rhythmic variation which later pops up in the cembalo-rubato-section.

I wasn't aware of that, but maybe this already has been discussed?

What I remember already has been mentioned is how much Zappa liked Schönberg's "Serenade op.24" since he grabbed some material of its 5th movement - the "Dance Scene" - and other parts.

If somebody points to an already existing thread of this nature, I'm happy to transfer this post.

edit:
Since this turns out to revolve only around the Stravinsky-thing I changed the thread's title accordingly.

_________________
The present day stattewäbchen refuses to compose...


Last edited by cookie_manager on 2014-10-07 08:37; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
franktomatozappa
Power Poster
Joined: 2010-08-28
Posts: 2141
uk.gif
Post 2014-10-04 08:48   [Quote] 
cookie_manager wrote:
Where is Yetanother when we need him the most?


Travelling. He's in Europe and been uploading some interesting stuff on Dime!
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
brainpang
Power Poster
Joined: 2007-02-01
Posts: 2526
Post 2014-10-04 11:13   [Quote] 
cookie_manager wrote:
Where is Yetanother when we need him the most?

I'm currently listening to a load of Strawinsky, and in the last 20 seconds of his "Trois poésies de la lyrique japonaise" we get to hear the opening motiv of "Uncle Meat" including a rhythmic variation which later pops up in the cembalo-rubato-section.

I wasn't aware of that, but maybe this already has been discussed?


great catch! here it hear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfWvz6H2So0
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
pbuzby
Site Admin
Joined: 2005-04-30
Posts: 8528
usa.gif
Post 2014-10-04 17:36   [Quote] 
Indeed in the third song (starting at 2:14 in the video brainpang linked) one theme from the flute parts, and the violin at the end, is the same minor third followed by two descending fourths pattern Zappa used in Uncle Meat (although the repeated note at the end of this theme in Zappa's piece is not in Stravinsky's).
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
oofers
Joined: 2006-01-14
Posts: 196
usa.gif
Post 2014-10-06 18:30   [Quote] 
pbuzby wrote:
Indeed in the third song (starting at 2:14 in the video brainpang linked) one theme from the flute parts, and the violin at the end, is the same minor third followed by two descending fourths pattern Zappa used in Uncle Meat (although the repeated note at the end of this theme in Zappa's piece is not in Stravinsky's).


That is amazing that the OP heard that. It definitely matches.

Still, just to play devil's advocate -- how much intentionality of the part of FZ can we ascribe to this? Four diatonically occurring pitches. Could certainly happen by coincidence, no?

We know Zappa heard a lot of ol' Igor. But just asking -- is it more likely that he hit upon a Stravinksky-like sequence that just happened to match this little bit of this piece?

I'm thinking about how quotes are usually meant to be recognized by the listener. A musical joke from composer to audience. If it matched, say, the opening bassoon of the Rite of Spring, then I'd think it'd be unequivocally intentional.

Stunning catch, either way.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
CheepnisAroma
Contributor
Joined: 2004-12-09
Posts: 7107
Location: Way down in France
EU.gif
Contributor
Post 2014-10-06 20:33   [Quote] 
Very nice catch!!
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
cookie_manager
Power Poster
Joined: 2007-12-20
Posts: 2154
Post 2014-10-07 09:05   [Quote] 
oofers wrote:
Still, just to play devil's advocate -- how much intentionality of the part of FZ can we ascribe to this? Four diatonically occurring pitches. Could certainly happen by coincidence, no?
I thought that too, and one can never know for sure.

But the intervallic constellation of those four diatonically occurring pitches is quite special, and Zappa's known to really admire Strawinsky...

Anyway, instead of writing complicated descriptive stuff I decided to pair the Strawinsky-bit with said slow "Uncle Meat"- section:
https://soundcloud.com/user775162301/meat

_________________
The present day stattewäbchen refuses to compose...
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
Dark Clothes
Poster
Joined: 2012-03-13
Posts: 410
Post 2014-10-07 15:14   [Quote] 
pbuzby wrote:
Indeed in the third song (starting at 2:14 in the video brainpang linked) one theme from the flute parts, and the violin at the end, is the same minor third followed by two descending fourths pattern Zappa used in Uncle Meat (although the repeated note at the end of this theme in Zappa's piece is not in Stravinsky's).

I'm hearing more of a similarity from around 3:29 in that clip.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM]  [www] 
pbuzby
Site Admin
Joined: 2005-04-30
Posts: 8528
usa.gif
Post 2014-10-07 15:22   [Quote] 
In my post I meant that the third song starts at 2:14. The theme similar to Uncle Meat is most noticeable around 3:29 but also appears a few times earlier.
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
father-0blivion
Power Poster
Joined: 2012-02-07
Posts: 3017
Location: Dwarf Nebula
england.gif
Post 2014-10-07 16:04   [Quote] 
pbuzby wrote:
In my post I meant that the third song starts at 2:14. The theme similar to Uncle Meat is most noticeable around 3:29 but also appears a few times earlier.

It got me singing about fuzzy dice and bongos so I'd say there's definitely a similarity..

FOB. Smile

_________________
''Just consider this..... You can be scared when it gets too real...''
(FZ: ''It Just Might Be A One-Shot Deal'')

'' 'n pretty soon, there won't be no street, for dummies to jog on, or doggies to dog on, religious fanatics, can make it be all gone...''
(FZ: ''Dumb All Over'')
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
rubbershirt
Poster
Joined: 2013-07-25
Posts: 370
usa.gif
Post 2014-10-07 18:09   [Quote] 
I'm no expert, but 20th century (and other) composers would often use a 'cell' or nucleus as a sort of motif and then see how much they could milk it using inversions, retrograde etc. Igor was a master at this. While we will never know, it would seem within the relm of possibility that Frank as an excercises decided to play with one of Stravinksy's cells. Frank often used repeating the same note to add weight (as opposed to just increasing the note value/length. That would fit with the extra note duplicated in the Uncle Meat motif. Incedentally there is Mars interview where he states he did not like this in Frank's writing) All complete conjecture of course.

Yes. Cool find!
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
yetanother
Power Poster
Joined: 2005-10-12
Posts: 6224
Location: Sampa Hell
brazil.gif
Post 2016-11-13 04:01   [Quote] 
Looks like I missed this thread the first time around. And I was even mentioned in it, though I'm not sure what I was needed for Smile

Anyway, yes, it's an ascending minor third followed by two descending perfect fourths... not a connection I find particularly remarkable when talking about two composers who clearly shared a particular fondness for perfect fourths/fifths. So I tend to lean more towards oofers's interpretation.

I wouldn't exclude the possibility that it's intentional, of course, but more as a borrowing from Stravinsky than a deliberate intention to quote him.

Now I'm intrigued about what cookie_manager said about Schönberg's Serenade - I'll have to revisit it someday, as I really don't remember hearing any Zappa connection there.

_________________
nitramz.com
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM]  [www] 
arf
Poster
Joined: 2005-08-29
Posts: 366
france.gif
Post 2016-11-23 13:29   [Quote] 
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
zeeker
Power Poster
Joined: 2005-08-08
Posts: 1008
Location: Noo Yawk
Post 2016-11-24 04:12   [Quote] 
Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal. Igor Stravinsky
Back to top
 [Profile]  [PM] 
New topic title
Forum for new topic
 
Page 1 of 1
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.zappateers.com Forum Index -> Zappalogy All times are GMT + 1 Hour

 

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group, TorrentPier © Meithar